Nonsense. You're joining up with me.

Only because I hate feeling guilty for leaving RPs all the time.

Anyone else consider that it would be impossible to ban slavery in a medieval setting world like the makers did? I mean in our world you had the industrial revolution where the out put per man sky rocketed to what it was before. But if the ban on slavery happened in the 1300s (nevermind i have no idea how it would be enforced) I think pretty much society would collapse. As ugly as it is to our modern era sensitivities we have to realize I believe that slavery was an essential part of human civilization. And even people who weren't "official" slaves like the serfs and peasants who worked the fields, were still pretty much just that.

I agree with you that it was a useful system of exploitation that powered advancements in several fields, but I think we can all agree that slavery was inherently flawed ethically. To presume control over the life of another human being, who cannot be claimed to be inferior as there is no truly just scale to compare humans, is simply wrong. Not for any religious reasons, simply because as human beings we all possess a certain degree of sentience, and to inflict pain and suffering on someone is a self evident evil. The golden rule and whatnot.

Now, that's not to say that inflicting pain is not a requisite for any kind of civilization, as any true pacifist would be overtaken by more aggressive peoples in short order, and that is simply the flawed state of human nature. The only utopian solution would be if all states became pacifists, sharing resources and ending suffering and all that good stuff, but it is an impossible dream (in my opinion) because there will always be that one guy to ruin it.

Or, if you believe some of the science fiction stories (like Brave New World, for instance), a certain level of peace can be attained through total governmental control over all aspects of life, in one world-state, but that would destroy everything that makes people unique and interesting. All cultural, religious, linguistic, and ethnic diversity would have to be eliminated, leading to an ignorant mass of humans little better than animals.

Back to my main point, slavery (or something like it) was used all across the globe, save in some "backwards" groups that never became major powers. The road to peace is paved with misery, and all growth is fueled by the blood, sweat, and tears of the masses. Terrible as it is, I agree.



Anyway, is there really no one willing to play the Khajiit? I sent a PM to Scow, since he was so interested in the Senche, but he hasn't gotten back to me. I would think the cats would be the most interesting to play, since their units and culture are so un-bland. Heck, if I wasn't already the Dunmer I would gladly take them.

And, Haresus, I was hoping that they would be willing to cooperate based on our common enemy, Bravil, and show enough civility not to shoot the messenger.

PS Ravanger, I'll post right after you, with my diplomat, so if you want to announce his presence or anything so we can skip straight to the discussions, that would be very helpful Thanks.

There's no question it's immoral especially to our eyes today. I am simply saying it would be impossible in a medieval setting. Everyone had slaves from battles or markets or a combination of the two. I wonder though if people in the modern era, tricked by commercials and propaganda into buying crap they don't need with money they don't have are any more free than the slaves ushered into Rome after a great conquest to display. At least the slave in Rome knew who he was.

I doubt anyone here is saying slavery was a morally good thing here Darkom. However, economically, before conventional power (steam, ect) it was technically a good idea. Twice the manpower for a fraction of the cost, after all. Yes it probably wasn't the nicest thing to do to a conquered people but you force an entire people into slavery and you see your economy boom with the selling of slaves, people paying to watch them fight (Rome) plus you get the beautiful buildings of old that you see today!

That was why I always figured Tamriel had the most stable economy in the world. You take away the majority of the "dirty" work force and barely nobody blinks an eye because (game-wise at least) there is no "peasant-class". Everybody, even the poorest of the poor, have a decent house, a job and what not.

Except the Oblivion beggars of course...

Morality is based on the society viewing it.

Some, like traditionaly Dunmer, don't view slavery as wrong. And a illegitamate king (Helseth) and an invading empire (....The Empire) can't change that, no matter what they call morals.

I can't imagine that ban on slavery going anywhere in Morrowind. Dres wouldn't give up their plantation based economy that easily, they might say they did but they're going to end up using the 'freed' slaves for the same purpose anyway. The rest of the Houses don't seem big on slavery though, except Telvanni and it's not like anyone's going to make them do anything.

Slavery is such an ugly word anyway. There's nothing to stop anyone from banning slavery but having a serf-based economy where the peasants are exploited so much they might very well be slaves. That, of course, has a slew of problems of its own.

:shrug: Something tells me it's just a wee bit worse for actual slaves. Though compared to colonization era slavery, Roman slavery was practically moral.

Although, one could argue that in Tes the less than sentient creatures (such as goblins and trolls) could be used as labor. We know for a fact the Altmer do it.

I find it interesting that the Argonians are commonly seen as victims by the 'big bad evil Dres' yet we don't really stop to consider that the Argonians wiped out pretty much the entire human civilization in Black Marsh and the fact that they actually kicked out the "Cantemiric Dunmer" out of northern Black Marsh as well.

Hey, my fan fic http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1085270-path-of-justice/page__view__findpost__p__15817574__fromsearch__1 is about an Ordinator who is taken prisoner and tortured by Argonians during the Arnesian War. The story's theme is all about finding justice in a time of war, amidst racial oppression and slavery. In the end, both sides are proven to be vicious and selfish, proving the premise that war is never just. But enough self advertising

I was reading up on some famous historical battles, and I was wondering, what's your favorite battle/general, strategy wise?

I am always a huge fan of Hannibal, and his famous encirclement of the Roman troops at Cannae. I'm sure you've all heard about it; he put Gaul mercenaries in his center and used his superior cavalry to eliminate the Roman horse. Then, he ordered the center troops to steadily fall back, forming a V with his elite troops on the sides, capturing the Romans in the center (who still thought they were on the edge of victory). Finally, he surrounded them from behind with his cavalry, and proceeded to slaughter them so badly they still remembered it a thousand years later

I disagree. If a war is fought for the right purposes, then it is just.


I like Megas Alexandros, but I can't remember the battle that made me really like him. I know it dealt with a cavalry charge, and when Phillipos was still King of Makedonia.

Chaeronea?

As for me, my favourite guy has to be Jan Karol Chodkiewicz. He might not be up there with the other well known big names, but Kircholm FTW.

The battle of Pharsalus with Gaius Caesar and Gnaeus Pompeius is pretty... fun?

The battle of Issus also "gets my blood going" like when I watch Batman. I also like the battle of Leuctra because whenever my friends say how badass the Spartans are, I just tell them how a group of homosixuals beat them (no, I don't mean anything offensive to homosixuals so go easy). As well as the entire Syracuse Expedition by Athens in the Pelo. War. Disaster much?

First battle of Tapae where the Dacians wipe out four to six Roman Legions.

I'm trying to highlight the idea that Argonians are not just innocent victims of the Dunmer and can be pretty cruel and vicious with my current character in Hammer and Anvil.




I'd have to say the Battle of Marathon. It seems awesome to me that even when the Athenians can't get any help from the Spartans, they can still massacre a Persian force of a size equal to theirs while still only suffering around 200 casualties out of their 11,000 men. To add to the awesomeness factor, they proceeded to run miles in heavy armor to scare off the Persians near Athens afterward. Imagine how frightening it would be to be the Persians; you see 11,000 Greek hoplites, so you drop off 12,000 men to keep them busy/kill them all while you sail around to attack Athens. Then, you finally manage to reach Athens, only to find the same 11,000 guys waiting for you with no sign of the troops you just dropped off.

Brian Boru ((Brian Bóruma mac Cennétig, (c. 941–23 April 1014)) and his rout of the Vikings in dublin. Brian Boru is to me the last of the great High Kings of Ireland as well as being one of my ancestors. though variations change and he did die during the battle of dublin that much is clear, he did unite most of ireland and free it of the viking occupation. In his youth he was a skilled warrior a great tactician and a wise politician. In the end he did die but he died a hero and a King.

I'm thinking people are overestimating the number of One-man-army mages (The earth-shakers+the like). And the durability of the average soldier in Tamriel.

And remember, people in heavy armor are more resistant to elemental damage (and all other types of damage as well), because learning to move in the armor toughens the body.

Biggest problem I'm seeing here is people are treating the Earth-shaking Chain Lightning Bolts as instagibs against the enemy soldiers. Also, the relative training of a mage vs. the professional soldiers (Not mere conscripts) is about the same. So, for every Mage that can cast a lightning bolt that blows through a column of men, there's also a Nonmage that takes the bolt to the chest, laughs "That Tingles" and stabs the offensive Mage in the face.

A good book to read is "Mixed Unit Tactics", which demonstrates how Khajiit pwn superior Bosmer forces by blending Stealth, Combat, and support magic.

Here's an idea for spell use in battle RPs:
Destruction (Offensive Battlefield control)
Elemental attacks:
[list][*]Elemental burst(ex: Fireball): A fire spell with an Area of Effect. These mostly discourage tight formations and control a battlefield. They kill conscripts, but professional soldiers of similar training are merely inconvenienced (taking several to kill a healthy soldier of similar training/level)
[*]Elemental Blast (Ex: Shock): A powerful burst of energy used by advanced mages. It can stop, but likely doesn't kill, a Professional Soldier of similar training, often requiring follow-up blasts. Likely used to kill weakened soldiers, or in concert from multiple mages to take down heavy targets.
There are also two variations that are a result of a Spellcaster casting above or below his optimal power level:
[*]Elemental bolt: a low-powered blast favored by Spellswords and Crusaders for the ability to unleash it quickly with swordplay.
[*]Elemental Apocalypse: These are overpowered Bursts and Blasts. Elemental strikes that can almost kill a healthy Professional Heavy Soldier of similar training, or eliminate swaths of conscripts. These are rarely used because they consume a large amount of magic, and are inefficient. They do not exist in theory, only practice. In theory, they are the result of a Mage casting a Blast or Burst several magnitudes above their optimal power level.
Attribute Drain/Damage: Used to soften up particularly troublesome foes (Usually Warbeasts or Heroes), or to reduce the combat effectiveness of a group of soldiers for cleanup from non-mages. It's situational, but the situations pop up with alarming frequency. Damage is "permanent", but Drain can't be negated by Restoration.

Alteration (Defensive battlefield control)
Shield: a mild, short-radius repulsion field that slows incoming blows. It's not an impenetrable forcefield around someone.
Elemental Shields: Either a short-radius repulsion field that dampens extreme changes in temperature in given direction, or dissipates electromagnetic bursts(Oblivion), or a field of an extreme temperature (Either above the ignition point of certain hydrocarbons in the air, or significantly below the freezing point of water) or alternating electromagnetic currents surrounding someone that disperses likened energies, and exclude the subject the field is around from its effects.(Morrowind style, and the one I find more interesting)

Restoration (Buffs and Recovery)
Elemental Resist: Fortifies the body against Electromagnetice shock, or the effects of certain extreme temperature changes, while slowing the rates at which Frostbite sets in or Carbon oxidizes.
Resistance in General is for negating and countering enemy deployments, forcing mixed units.
Health Restoration: Closes wounds and repairs/replaces damaged and destroyed tissue quickly. Most aren't very powerful, but potions are known to have much stronger effect. The more "reinforced" a body is against being damaged, the more healing magic is required to restore the body to its former state. (It takes a lot more effort to heal a Hero than a Conscript)
Restoration in general is for recovery during and after a battle to keep the user's side fighting fresh and migitate casualties.
Fortification is used on individuals or squads in strategically important or serendipitous locations, to grant them power above their training.

Most of these spells are rather insignificant, so the casting and countercasting can be glossed over

"Big" spells not represented in the game are usually major historic events, or cast by users that the average army can't field with regularity, generally only used during Desperate Defenses or the Final Assault. Some are actually Elemental Apocolypse cast by very powerful mages.

I figure 25% of all soldiers are spellcasters of some degree (Casting as ~25% of their combat expertise, from 1 or 2 schools), and ~5% (1 in 20) are actual Mages as a unique unit group (Alongside Infantry, and Archers, and any can be upgraded to Cavalry). Use these numbers as you will.

And I saw someone seriously underestimate the sizes and power of Khajiit Senche and Senche-Raht.
They aren't 7' and 14' long respectively. They are 7' and 14' tall, at the shoulders. These things are MASSIVE (note the relative weights are in excess of several tons). A Senche's about 18'-21' long from muzzle to flanks, and a Senche-Raht's about 28'-35' long from muzzle to flanks. Then they get scarier: They are just as intelligent as anyone else, and capable of becoming ridiculously tough when they are trained for battle and combat. Fortunately for all, they don't scale quite the same in power level from "Conscript" to "Hero" as the 5'-7' tall bipedal characters do, having most of their strength and durability from their mass instead of training/conditioning. Their size also works against them, making them very big targets to hit with spells, missiles, or swarms of little people. On the other hand, from an objective standpoint, even assuming their bulk does slow them down in terms of bodylengths/minute more than a scaled-down cat, as they're already flipping the bird to the Square-Cube ratio, it's not hard to justify them as being the fastest creatures as well, and their jumping ability makes them even more awesome. (And the amount of weight they can carry means their "Medium Armor" can be about the same as a Main Battle Tank's)

While Senche's are huge, it is almost impossible to make good armor for them (and it is expensive), along with the fact that there aren't that many outside of Elsweyr. They are mostly very slow on foot with the rare armor they might have, making them easy missile targets.

How do you know that though? Can you please link the magical theory that supports that claim, because I don't seem to remember anyone (officially. ie. game dev or the guy who wrote the book) ever going into the theory of the way magicka works in the world of TES.

EDIT: You may think that while others may say it hardens the skin of the caster, or any other theory.

Any one mage will be ass kicked by an army anyway mate. One thing: horses.

If I run over you with a [censored] two ton warhorse, clothed in steel mail from head to toe, with this big ass lance, I don't care if you have shield. You are going to die/be seriously injured. That's like getting hit by a [censored] car.

I always imagined shield as some kind of forcefield anyway, not a stone skin thing.

:shrug:

Different opinions I guess. I'm not saying anyone is wrong and I'm not saying I'm right but that nobody can really know unless one of the devs, for whatever reason, decides that he/she wants to write a manual explaining the theory of magicka in the world.

If it was a force field, then that would be even better. Because the blows would never even hit you. You'd just be knocked away. A stone-skin-like spell would probably hurt worse.

It also really depends on the strength of the Shield spell.

Slow? Really? :lmao: Their massive body length and feline body mechanics make the fastest units on the battlefield. If they were otherwise, it would be impossible for them to pounce, which we know they do from the interview with Cherim.
And where do you get the idea it's almost impossible to make good armor for them? I doubt the Khajiit would neglect to bother making armor available to a full 12.5% of their population, especially for such a massive target. Its method of manufacture of the plates would merely be different, not impossible. Khajiit don't go for full plate armors.

And I see Shield as a repulsion field because that's the best description for what we see in game... Incoming blows are softened, not broken. It also explains the way it allows a wide range of magnitudes. With a Forcefield, it's all-or-nothing... Which we never see in any game. Technically, a strong enough shield is able to completely stop blows in their tracks.

They are going to be slow man. They weigh a ton. They will be slow.

If that thing tries to fight a Dunmeri ashlander, or a Yoku Desert Tribesman (with a bow), it won't be able to catch him.