Remember the political intrigue in Morrowind: Mages v. Telvanni, Thieves Guild v. Morag Tong, the Imperial Cult v. the old religion, the conflict between the gods, and of course the Great Houses? Remember how disappointed you were when Oblivion didn't deliver on this front, leaving the game one-sided, uninvolving, and incomplete (e.g. Mages versus a non-joinable, undeveloped Necro guild)?

I joined the TES adventure with Morrowind and all 3 expansions. However, I left Oblivion before Shimering Isles, heavily disappointed with the lack of plot and immersion that Morrowind had in spades. I recently started up again after seeing that the modding community has since filled in a lot of the missing pieces of the puzzle. But one thing I haven't seen is a mod that deals with the loss of the Imperial Dynasty in a way that isn't simplistic and obtuse (I have the Emperor's clothes and NPCs call me Emperor now, har har).

By now there should be a mod that fixes this. If I were a more advanced modder and not working full time, I might take up the job myself. As it stands, all I can do is propose a new mod to the community in the hopes that someone else can take up the project.

I envision the mod being used with The Elder Council.

The mod would start sometime after the main quest is completed. An Imperial Legionnare would deliver you a letter from High Chancellor Ocato summoning you to the Imperial Palace. There he would discuss the Empire's need for a new Emperor. Under Imperial law, Ocato tells you, if a dynasty dies the Elder Council (the Emperor, when alive, the Duke of Colovia, the High Chancellor, the Counts, the head of the Imperial Legion, the ArchMage, the head of the Imperial Cult, and the leaders of all the other provinces, if the modder feels like constructing them ) must select a new Emperor from the nobility of Cyrodiil, i.e., the Counts, or, in the unlikely event that all the Counts are dead or otherwise unable to take the throne, the High Chancellor must assume the office. Ocato conveniently fails to mention that a Great Hero might also be selected. Ocato would then send you to each of the Counts in turn in order to find out where he stands on the issue. Each count would require you to do 1-3 quests before giving his opinion, all of which you dutifully return to Ocato.

At that point, you would have choices. Ocato and each of the counts would have quests for you to do (5 minimum each). You could do quests for only one party, which would get you to the end fastest, or you could play the parties off each other, doing quests for multiple parties, which would delay the endgame but increase your rewards. Finally, you return to Ocato. Ocato has devised a plan: summon the Elder Council, appoint you Elector of the Emperor (who could deny the choice of the Champion of Cyrodiil, after all?), have you appoint Ocato Emperor, and his rivals will have to sit back and take it. You agree (sincerely or not is up to you). After another 1-3 quests to prepare for the Council (during which the head of the Imperial Legion takes you aside and tells you that his armies are loyal to you and would stand by your decision no matter what, but would like to see you on the throne), the meeting is convened with all present (NPCs take the place of the ArchMage and Duke of Colovia if you aren't already). You are appointed Elector, and must choose between Ocato, the Counts, and yourself. If you choose one of the Counts, Ocato will be pissed, and different mixes of counts will be displeased (no one wants Skingrad, and everyone loves the Countess of Anvil). If you choose Ocato, all the Counts will be displeased, because there is no precedent in Law for the High Chancellor taking the Throne when nobles are available. Finally, if you choose yourself, all the counts will approve, but Ocato will be pissed. You then have the option of ordering the Legion to arrest and execute any NPCs that were opposed to your choice, or graciously letting them go. Anyone executed will be replaced by a new NPC, preferably with the mod giving you more quests to choose replacements, and preferably allowing replacement with pre-existing NPCs to give them more depth, if that doesn't create too many problems.

If there is a mod out there currently that does something similar that I missed, please point me to it!

Damn...this is a great concept!

Make it hap'n cap'n!

Do want!

THIS.

A team of people should get together and work on this. I would help, it sounds way far past my abilities in the CS.

This would be an exellent mod.
It would add a lot of fun little quests to do.

first of all ....the idea of having a story after the main quest is good

int his case we should not forget that we've got a lot of hints about the empires future already ( Infernal City). We know that that the empire will sink into absolutely chaos short after the Oblivion crisis...the imperials will be driven out of Blackmarsh, Valenwood, Elsweyr and Summerset....Morrowind will be nearly destroyed and invaded by the Argonians....the counties of Leyawiin and Bravil will become independent for a while ( fighting each other) and somekind of local colovian warlord will become emporer (Titus Mede) and start rebuilding the empire again....

whatever such a mod will bring...it should defenetly not be a glory empire. I imagine ( or better plan myself) a scenario where Ocato, the blades and the imperial legion are desperately trying to hold the empire together ....

just my thoughts

Well having played this game and being a lover of history, political theory, and philosophy I've thought on the absurdities presented in this game.

I'm not, however, a lover of fantasy literature. I like the video game, but cannot stomach even much of the classing fantasy lit, so I've not read Infernal City nor plan to.

The empire of this game really is a fantasy though. What empire in the real world is like this? The Dukes are all content with just having their one (very) little town to rule over and do not conspire to more even when the empire sits without a throne. There is no courtly intrigue.

Further for a game company so committed to having slavery represented in every one of its games - there is a lack of actually seeing slaves and slave labor presented (especially in Oblivion). Where is the result of taxation, slavery, war? No what we are presented with is the ideal fascist society - a constant external threat that in the real world politicians would use to unify under a rule and in the game world makes an excuse to act like the a savior.

I recall that Byblos/300/NavyGurlBoyd wanted to make a feudal overhaul where the various provinces behaved independently of each other and the empire, but abandoned that after upgrading Knights of the White Stallion to Feudal Empire 300. That though is a great idea - certainly more so than yet another mod to justify the player wearing the crown.

I'm sure what Onra cooks up will be outstanding as usual, but a great addition to this would be having the player engage in chaos and siding with a faction over trying to unify the empire. Or better yet both. If a mod is made where there is one result: save the empire yet again (for what exactly we are not sure) then any feigning at alternate outcomes is just delaying the inevitable. To turn this into a truer RPG type of game why not alternate outcomes that result in different variations of a game world. Why not - it is not like this is an online game - each of us alter this game to our liking anyway.

If more than one path is made then it would have to be done right - none of this Path of Dawn (save the world then burn it) or Tears of a Fiend (be born of absolute evil then turn good and befriend murderers by ignoring their evil) nonsense.

Well that is just my little opinion on the matter. Life is more interesting due to strife and chaos than order.
ordo ab chao

Slavery is outlawed in all of the empire with the exception of Morrowind (due to the armistice signed between Tiber and Vivec), and even in Morrowind it was outlawed sometime between TES3 and 4. Seeing its consequences in Morrowind would be interesting, but I don't think Cyrodiil would see much of an impact (except maybe some newly liberated immigrants).

agreed on the rest though. OB = politics fail.

I really like the idea, but I think onra makes a good point. Whatever this grows into, it should attempt to be consistent with what has already been done. No point in muddying the waters...

Great idea!!

Ahem... not to be a lore fanatic but: Thieves Guild v. Morag Camonna Tong

Seems a bit simplified. More options would be nice. What you're going to have to do, though, is as Onra says: Decide whether the mod is going to be in line with the lore presented in The Infernal City. Only once you've decided this can you actually begin consistent creation of content. Otherwise the mod will fall flat. As it is, it sounds too limited; but if it's going to be limited in line with the lore of The Infernal City, then that is a good limitation. Otherwise, you can and should expand the breadth of the mod.

I think that this project is likely to take forever to come about if it does, but, that said, I too think that it is a great Idea. I took AP European history this past year because I love that kind of politics. It's just plain interesting, no matter how you cut it. Modern politics of course are less interesting and more frightening, but that's besides the point.

Courtly intrigue:

Diamond necklace affair.
Rasputin and the Romanovs.

Both of those situations could be easily integrated into an Oblivion mod of this type.

One thing that I would love for this mod, is that after you become emperor in the mod, that there are stuff for you to do, I want to FEEL like I;m the emperor, I want to have bodyguards and meet the people, etc, etc, etc.

one small issue that hasn't been mentioned, the EMPEROR runs the EMPIRE of Tamriel. not just Cyrodiil, so you're gonna need a massive worldspace. visiting the local counts wouldn't suffice either, you'd need to speak to the respective leaders of the other provinces (morrowind, daggerfall, vardenfell etc)
if you (or anyone else for that matter) could pull this one off properly, it'll probably be one of the most epic 3rd party game mods of all time.
The concept sounds awesome, but a lot of work (both planning and execution) will be required to pull it off. best of luck!

I fail to see the logic in this :huh:

A political quest mod is a great idea, but you should definitely think about the right implementation. Personally, I think that the player should under no circumstances become the new Emperor. For some players, that might be a cool feeling, but I think many don't really care about titles that effectively don't change anything in the game, apart from destroying every possibility of an interesting storyline.

I think there should be about three joinable sides to the conflict... the other sides will either serve as opponents or as supporters (the latter only after doing something for them, of course). Here's an example of what those sides could be:

- Blades: During the crisis, they had to defend the Empire with their swords... now, in the political struggles, it's time to go back to their original way of handling problems: Intelligence. They'll try to hold the Empire together, but will have to face political intrigue as well as provinces that try to use the chaos to become independent again. They are (of course) allied with Ocato and the Legion.

- County Bravil/Cheydinhal/Bruma/Skingrad: These counts/countesses are the ones I believe would try to gain more power after the crisis. Anvil is too peace-loving, Chorrol too melancholic and Leyawiin too wrapped up in their own affairs with Black Marsh and Elsweyr (surely hell should break loose down there - which would be an excellent setup for a "I'll help you if you help me" support quest). I might add that Hassildor might have some very nasty ways of getting rid of opponents, or at least distracting them, which is why I'd think he should be a joinable side. Cheydinhal, on the other hand, might be able to get support from King Helseth, which would make them very dangerous as well (Morrowind's destroyed, and the Imperials are to blame? Hell yeah we're going to invade).

- Provinces: The Blades will try to hold the Empire together, the rivaling counties will try to get support from the provinces by making agreements. Some provinces might be willing to support certain parties, others might simply be a hinderance to any party (the ones that don't believe there will be a new powerful Empire and try to gain sovereignty). In this way they're very important to each side.
One notable individual: King Helseth. He's a very interesting character, and after the crisis he finds himself in a very interesting position. He seems interested in the idea of an Empire as long as he gets to keep his power. However, he'll use all his cunning to get back the power he lost during the crisis, and it might well be that he betrays the side he said he'd support once the time is ripe. (In fact, no matter which side you choose, I suggest that at some point you'll have to deal with Helseth in one way or another.)

Pretty much. And anything that might be interested is mentioned in a few lines here and there, but that's pretty much it..

There's the counts saying things about Ocato wanting all the power for himself, the hostility towards beast races in Leyawiin by the Imperials and especially countess Alessia Caro, the death of the Cheydinhal Countess Llathasa Indarys... It puzzles me that Bethesda didn't do anything with that.

I'm with Fearabbit: Don't take the easy way out with a new Emperor. Choose sides to support? - yes. Do quests that help that faction? -yes. Have them succeed? - no. If the choices you have on offer are reasonably balanced, so it doesn't matter which side you choose, then the combination of the others is enough to thwart any one of them, and should do so, and leave the final status the same. Ocato and council struggling to keep order, and the Empire slowly dissolving into factions. Note that it already has been weakened, and the Empire's reach only encompasses Cyrodiil, and it's feeble in Leyawiin already.

I don't think Count Hassildor would take the step of trying to become Emperor. His current position is about all he can sustain while keeping his vampirism a non-issue. His county is also relatively central, and outside help harder to bring in. He might side with Ocato etc. in return for their support in maintaining his own stability. Cheydinhal's potential for help from Helseth has some interesting posibilities, especially if that assistance is fickle, and Helseth turns on Indarys when the chance arises, and all Cheydinhal's forces are moved toward the IC and away from the borders. I doubt that Bravil's Count has enough local backing to push his luck. Bruma might have problems with Skyrim and become distracted by that - the Nords aren't united and "always involved in border disputes". Narina Carvain has been an Imperial Loyalist in the MQ, and could probably be counted on to act as a spoiler for any usurper's effort. She'd want the process to be constitutional, not conquest, and probably contribute troops to that end. Leave her independent until the end-game, but have a quest or two giving her assistance to keep her allied with you (rather than your chosen side).

The Helseth influence is probably enough for the mod's basis. Help him (via Indarys) or hinder him. In the end, you'd either be opposing him within the Cheydinhal faction when he reveals his true intent, with the others just looking on and hoping to mop up afterward, or else he'd gain control of Cheydinhal and you'd oppose him with help from the other counts or Legion, depending on which side you'd taken, and therefore built up.

climix is defeat of the invasion, leaving you back at square one, with no Emperor, and the opportunity for more of the same. "...and they all lived uneasily ever after"

Great suggestions by Fearabbit.

And I again echo the advise to not make the player the emperor again.

Though if the infernal city is taken as strict lore (and I think it isn't supported that way) then a warlord rising in Colovia leaves room for that at least.

But also covenants with the gods. It is a fantasy world so religious power is literally real - is a statue going to hold back that giant stomping baby? What about other giant stomping babies?

What of new covenants with different Aedra?

Of the many things OOO does I think it addresses some of the faction relationship problems between NPCs best of all (you cans till be head of DB and FG though). All the factions seem to be primarily about things for the character to do that are completely unrelated to the MQ and filler having little to do with moving the MQ along.

New factions with changing relationships would be really important. That is some of what makes Onra's project so appealing - the other provinces give the opportunity to have other influences on the main of Cyrodiil. Valenwood looks to be a hotbed of political and military intrigue after the Oblivion crisis. I could easily see writing out a whole plotline for that.

Well, this is a fun topic to read about, but it I think the chances of it ever happening in a usable form are a bit remote. I do think the model used by bg2408 in his Integration: The Stranded Light quest could be used as a template; lots of talking and disposition/race/experience checks before things can be made to happen.

One little idea I had that could be incorporated is to simulate the increased tensions between the counties through changing dispositions of NPCs to the player character dependant on their actions, for example if the PC has been siding with,say, the Chorrol faction then maybe the Bravil faction more or less hate you, to the point of being attacked in the street by the Bravil guard when things get really bad.

following on from this there could be roaming bands of city guards in the wilds defending 'their' territory who need to be brought under control/slaughtered depending on the circumstances.

So much potential, so few great modders to realise it.

Well, in theory on the realism side of things, someone such as King Helseth of Morrowind, being a king of a province, outranks someone who's only a Count(ess) of a single county in Cyrodiil. Given their rank and that they govern provinces for the Emperor, they should have a say in the question of succession. Also, given how royal families tend to inter-marry IRL, any ruler or heir to a province could most likely pull out a convincing argument for why they should be next in line to be Emperor.

However...sending the Champion of Cyrodiil off to every province in Tamriel is a massive undertaking, on the technical/mod-building side of things. And the various kings and queens are hardly going to drop everything and head for the Imperial City, even in the midst of a succession crisis, when they've already got the aftermath of the Oblivion Crisis to deal with in their own provinces. It is possible that they would send a trusted representative, but for, say, King Helseth to appear in person is stretching things believability-wise, IMHO.

It also stands to reason that Ocato, being the shrewd politician (and possibly wanting to become Emperor himself, depending on your take on things), might want to get a new Emperor on the throne as quickly as possible to avoid total collapse and panic, and with a minimum of in-fighting. Selecting one ruler of a province over another could lead to outright secession and civil war, depending on who was picked over who. (For example, even though slavery is now abolished in Morrowind, the Argonians and the Khajiit are no friends of the Dunmer. How do you think Elsweyr and Blackmarsh will react if Helseth is given control of the entire Empire? Likewise, I suspect Morrowind would be none too pleased if a Nord was placed on the throne, given that Skyrim IIRC invaded northern Vvardenfell during the Oblivion Crisis.) Tamriel's hanging together by a thread as it is. Although none of the provinces will be too pleased by it, it makes sense that Ocato might choose to pick from one of the Counts and Countesses of Cyrodiil, in hopes of averting civil war and a succession crisis that could drag on for years.

TL;DR version: the original plan to pick from one of the Counts can be spun out to make the most sense, and is definitely the easiest thing to implement, mod-making wise.



What ghastley said. Hassildor as Emperor would be awesome, but not even remotely in-character for him. I do very much like adding in the possibility for "failure," as well...who said we had to have a good ending every time? Say you cast your vote for Hassildor, and he turns you down flat--then the rest of the nobles dislike you for voting for him, Ocato's peeved you didn't vote for him, and you've still got no Emperor. Now what? Nice job breaking it, hero.

Also, count me in as saying that yes, I think the option to declare yourself Emperor should be in the mod. If only because, well...if this mod had been around during my last game of Oblivion, my character would have had herself named Empress of Tamriel before Ocato could so much as blink. So I admit, there's some personal bias creeping in here. Not every character or player is going to want to be the next Emperor, of course, which is why it should only be an option, not a mandate. From a role-playing perspective, though, there's definitely characters out there who would enjoy that option, so why not leave it in?

Wow, a mod dealing with the political intrigues of Cyrodiil would be fantastic, and the ideas being thrown around in this thread are just making it sound better and better.

I really like what's been said so far but would like to add a couple suggestions. Firstly, the player should also have to curry the favour of the various guilds. Not only would each guild have its own agenda, but the player would probably be the head of some of them, which leads to other possibilities. As head of the dark brotherhood you could suggest that a councillor or even Chancellor Ocato have an "accident". If you were the head of the fighter's guild, you could order a stop to all activity in a town as blackmail. The town's farmers and merchants would suffer accordingly until the Count agreed to lend you his assistance. And so on...

Secondly, this would be a great opportunity to use the massive amount of gold most players have accumulated at the end of the game. Perhaps an irascible Count demands a bribe before he will agree to something. Or the treasuries might be depleted, and the champion of cyrodiil would have to use his personal fortune to help muster an army to defend against an unexpected border dispute.

My point is that Phaz666 acted as if there was only that solution; if you want to make this mod, you'll have to mod the whole rest of Tamriel. I was pointing out that there is no logical connection. One could argue that a mod concerning the Empire should somehow involve the other provinces, but it's not even realistic that it would be the player who would visit the other provinces - there are messengers for that kind of stuff - so the problem mentioned by Phaz666 is really nonexistent.
To make it short: Those who'd want to become the new Emperors would at some point move to Cyrodiil, all the others would stay in their provinces, and they would send representatives or messengers.


Concerning Hassildor: That questline could start veeery slowly. He might not even realize he's aiming for the throne with all his doings. It could start with him simply securing his own county's borders. A rival threatens to expose his vampirism to the public, which then leaves Hassildor no choice but to fight that rival. Or something like that. I agree that it would be strange if he simply decided "hey, I could be Emperor, surely nobody will make a fuss about me being a vampire", but nobody said the storyline should be that simple.
Concerning the other counts: Well, it's really difficult to say who's a loyalist and who's an opportunist. It really didn't look too bad for the Empire at some point during the crisis, I mean they had an heir and in the end even the Amulet of Kings, and the Empire was for any count the better choice than the Mythic Dawn/Mehrunes Dagon. Supporting them was only pragmatical, up until the point where Martin suddenly did something very heroic, but unfortunately also very cataclysmal for the Empire.

Concerning becoming the Emperor yourself: It would be very difficult to make a mod that makes this plausible. Then, it would be even more difficult to make being an Emperor not boring as hell, without falling into the "oh we have yet another crisis mylord" trap. That is why I don't like the idea (aside from the fact that it simply doesn't make for interesting storylines, and you'd probably soon feel like somebody's puppet because he constantly asks you "you have these three folders, which one will you choose?")

By the way, I imagine the final journal entry of any of these questlines would look something like this:
"It has been three weeks since X named himself the new Emperor of Tamriel. I have supported him in every way I could. I made sure the poisoned letter by Helseth never fell into his hands. I hired thieves to steal the Blades' intelligence reports. I killed Ocato when he wouldn't dismiss the Council. I did all this so that the Empire would prosper once again. And now, three weeks later, X lies dead in his new bedroom, killed by an unknown murderer. I have failed. What will happen to Tamriel now?"
(You can read a better version of that in the 2920 series. Do it, it's worth it.)

Like I said, the option to become emperor should still exist, as long as you have something to do after you become it.