And the preferable alternative to that was to all but guarantee a nuclear-conflict?


Not at-all, the Chinese were merely after the American's oil reserves and not the destruction and occupation of the entire United States; conversely the Americans were trying to capture Beijing and destroy the PRC as a sovereign nation.

The Chinese made no attempts to invade anywhere else in America in the 10 years of war; there was still an overwhelming abundance of America left to be destroyed had the America launched their nuclear weapons against the Chinese after merely taking Alaska.

Super-mutants in the CW and other such calamities, yes. Not restricted to super-mutants certainly.



Until we have evidence that Stiggs and Anna would have been thrown to the dogs. Why assume that?


Perhaps not. But then again, the Enclave doesn't have to come to them. Autumn's plan was originally set around the idea of the wasteland flocking to the Enclave for fresh water. Given enough time, a decade or so perhaps. The virus would die off and the water be available for consumption by a wider population. Assuming an anti-dote couldn't be provided.

Again, this is also assuming the virus would kill all in the Capital. Which again, I don't really think is the case.



I don't follow.

Eden doesn't tell Autumn he's going nuclear against the CW. Autumn reassures himself that Eden is telling the truth and assumes they are going with his plan of fighting it mono-e-mono.

The LW comes in, that vision of Autumn's is shattered. He panics.

It what way does my statement "fall apart" at that?


Anyone or anything that has been affected by mutation. There's also an ending slide with a dead deathclaw if I remember correctly. Although I might be mistaken on that.

In any case, the virus was tailored to mutations. Not to the humanoids that Richardson's was.


Your camp is the one who brought it up as proof that Eden is not as I'm claiming.


So yes. "Next."



He wants to kill ghouls and heavy mutations yes. I'm assuming the Enclave hasn't grown a fondness for extreme genetic divergence.

Does it go beyond ghouls? Perhaps. But based on the checkpoints there is clear evidence to suggest that most wastelanders make it through. Unless its just freaking ghouls walking around on the main roads.



Because he comes from a Vault?

The Enclave has also shown in the past that it doesn't give two-[censored] about those pure wastelanders. So why screen in the first place? Just kill them all.


And is a mass produced vaccine to cover everyone in the CW even possible? Does the Enclave have the resources for that?

Ghouls are marked as Wastelanders. Raiders and Slavers would count as "wastelanders." Do you really believe the Enclave would want raiders and slavers in their ranks? They would do away with them and the BoS and keep those they see as useful. I have never seen humans killed at those points.


Eden is indifferent. If he can get them to help then that's good. If they die then, he still gets his way. Of course he wouldn't care for the BoS, Raiders and Slavers.

As Lt. Andronicus said Eden doesn't talk about killing everyone just extreme mutation. ( I am taking Lt's word on that) If true then yeah I can see him not having a hate on for the wastelanders like Richardson.

As I said before Fallout 3s plot with the Enclave and Eden hating and wanting to killeveryone doesn't make a damn bit of sense. So many plotholes. This way many of them can actually be filled in IMO.

Well they are to some extent as even Andronicus has admitted.


It being a better explanation than what Bethesda came up with (which is usually nothing at all) is not support that it should be considered fact.

Also let's look at the Fallout 3 ending slides:

"Sadly, when selected by the sinister president to be his instrument of annihilation, the Wanderer agreed. Humanity will be preserved, but only in its purest form. The waters of life flowed at last, but the virus contained within soon eradicated all those deemed unworthy of salvation. The Capital Wasteland, despite its progress, became a graveyard."

Yeah that really sounds like Eden's Enclave has changed alright. All that talk of pure humanity and exterminating those deemed unworthy of salvation while dead inhabitants of Rivet City are on the screen definitely sounds like what's being claimed here.

They didn't feel it would have happened. The fighting would have gone on for years and years, it would have never ended.



Alaska is American soil. You can't have the oil without occupation of Alaska. China tried to push further into America but was stopped.

Just because they didn't invade anywhere else in America doesn't mean they weren't trying to take it over. It all likelyhood they didn't have the means to do so.

I feel that China's goal was "if we take Alaska and America's Oil they would collapse without it." They were wrong. Not to mention America did counter attack in China itself before Alaska was taken back. So China would have been busy trying to drive them out and take Alaska.

Not to mention Fallout 3 shows us heavly armed Chinese soldiers and spies in DC itself. We learned in Point Lookout China had spies and other agents all across America. Seems like alot of work for a people just trying to get the oil.

To an extent yes. Hard to argue otherwise. But not nearly in the numbers one would think. Literally I've seen on or two. The rest are completely ghouls.


Frankly when has Bethesda ever given a reliable end slide for Fallout 3 and when have they ever been consistant in character motivations and beliefs?

Autumn has split personalities. Eden's does as well frankly.

Inconstancy is impossible not to find. However, that single line is the only mention in the entire game of "pure" humanity in any form. And the whole slide eventually gets ignored anyway with Broken Steel.

I'm weeding my way through the [censored] really.

I never said it was fact. Just that it makes far more sense then the nonsensical bullcrap we did get that we are just supposed to accept as fact that we got from Bethesda

But if we were to see that as fact, then it would actualy mean Fallout 3 makes some sense.



1. Again it could be he hoped some would survive. As I said indifferent.

2. That ending is moot anyways thanks to Broken Steel, in which we do see alot of people living just fine and DC is no longer a graveyard and only some people get sick, hence survivers.

Because it's the Enclave Andronicus, have we forgotten who we are talking about here; they shoot Amata when she tells them where the Vault is if you'd like an example. Your letting your rampant desire to fix the fundamental flaws in this [censored] game completely blind you to what we are dealing with.
Oh so Autumn just "assured himself" that Eden was on his side, right... and either he was entirely oblivious to the on-going FEV research or Eden made sure he didn't know.
Your argument was that Eden and Autumn want the same thing just that one is willing to accept more collateral than the other and that was the reason for the split, I way false because the split occurred in the period when Autumn thought that Eden and he were on the same page.
You are incorrect on that matter, it shows Super-mutants, Ghouls and a lot of humans; also mentions something about "humanity only surviving in its purest form" too.
There is nothing to suggest that the virus was, in any way, targeted towards anything other than humanoids.

Quite, your using it as evidence of Eden's moral compass in regards to the wastelanders when he was trying to maintain the guise of someone who'd been convinced by Autumn.

pre war military.




no.. i am not. i am saying they both did wrong. stop putting words in my mouth.



right. or they could start a war and use all of that oil fighting it. reprocussions. another reason we still use oil is because its still economically viable.
this is not the case in the fallout universe. they would have switched to alternative fuels waaaaay before the great war, because even if there are a few drops left, even if china didnt exist, they would need to.





youre crazy if you think the pre war govt wouldnt factor that china would retaliate.
thats the thing. they are desperate for oil. no one has any.


i know its off the coast. but international waters probably werent even the same in the FO uinverse are ours.



also, everyone is fighting over the north pole is because they dont have those boundaries set yet. if they were there wouldnt be fighting. it would be clear who the are belonged to.
what you say it boils down to just there and what youre paraphrasing me as saying are two seperate things.
no.. china isnt the victim here. the entire world is. thats what you fail to see.
i did say way back that they pre war govt was just as responsible as any other govt. the pre war govt along with china locked in a game that killed the planet the first time. im not talkign about what chinas role was, because this thread isnt about them...its about the enclave. who are to an extent both pre and post war.
the post war enlcave planning on killing the planet a second time without looking at anything beyond new reno is what makes them bad post war.
in the na,me of some misguided loyalty to a [censored] flag have no problems with killing everyone on the planet. every continent. that makes them bad.

That it occurs at all is the big indicator though.


That Fallout 3's ending slides and characters are terrible and inconsistent on the whole doesn't mean we can just ignore what Bethesda actually put in the game. That is Bethesda's summation of the ending where you carry out Eden's plan. It does not agree with what you are arguing here.

Again squire, it's irrelevant because the camps were either on Autumn's orders or Eden was (at the time) masquerading as someone who had been "persuaded" that Autumn was right. If you don't know Autumn is in complete denial at the ending of the game if you speech him and show him the vial, he's apparently under the impression that the entire plan was abandoned moths prior and suggests that you stole the virus before he accepts that Eden has been lying to him.

Quite, nor in-fact has it ever prevent either of us from using it as evidence in the past.

Fair enough. That argument may work for Anna, but what in the world does Stiggs have to offer? Does the Enclave really not have any reliable robot repairman?

They found the guy face down in the dirt after all.


He assured himself Eden wasn't lying about not keeping things from him. That's what I mean.


Which is a frankly still a plot-hole. It can't be explained either by assuming Eden is out to get wastelanders or that Eden is not.


Eden mentions that the virus will kill any "mutated creatures upon ingestion."

I mean, what else is he referring to?



I'm giving a single interpretation that fills some holes. I won't pretend that its not without issues. Then again, the entire game has issues to start with. So any sub-theories almost assuredly will as well.


Here's the thing though: did Bethesda follow through with that slides interpretation?

Frankly. No they didn't. They completely ignored it. Which means, summation or not, they didn't hold any real relevance to it.

So why should we?

Sure a lot of things would make far more sense than what was actually in the game. But they weren't. Bethesda does not seem to agree with this assessment of Eden's plan and there is significant in-game evidence to contradict it.



The ending is still played even with Broken Steel installed. Just because Broken Steel wouldn't make any sense in a deserted wasteland doesn't mean we can just ignore it.

Also, with the collapse of the UN, there's no reason why any nation should stick to "international waters"; what's the worst that can happen? They "condemn" you? Without the UN (or an international organisation) to actually police nations claims to ocean territory then anyone can claim what they like with the deciding factor being whether they can hold it or not.

I am going to have to agree to disagree with you and the Enclave on who's fault it was. Seems like Pre-War America bashing to me, all evil in the world is their fault and so on and on.

I grow tired and we will just talk in cycles forever. So lets just end this peacefully before one of us goes nuclear?

That's a very good point.


I'm not saying we even have to follow it just that it's Bethesda's summation of Eden's plan when implemented. Even if we accept Broken Steel retconned this ending it didn't retcon Eden's plan it just retconned that the plan ever came to fruition.

Actually if Lt. does explain how its there in the game. He and I agree its there and we see it that way. You disagree and deny its there.

So you would rather have pure Grade A Bethesda bullcrap that doesn't make anysense at all as canon.... You accept crap as canon (as do I cause I can't argue Bethesda's work isn't canon).

Then try to make sense of it all. It makes sense. Don't think of Eden as just as a computer version of Richardson. Think of him as a unique personality.


Actually I think it means just that. Bethesda came up with Broken Steel because people didn't like the ending. So they simply removed it, at least any possible concequences that could come from it. People aren't dying on mass as the ending would have you believe. Only a handful of people get sick. Far less actually die. So much for a super weapon.

No its not. Doesn't matter who gave the order for those so called "deathcamps" it doesn't show humans being killed on mass. Only ghouls. And they wouldn't accept raiders and slaver or cannibals into their new America. Those people would have to be killed off. Which could be what was happening at those "camps."

Small detail here but deathclaws aren't mutants, there Pre-War military genetic engineering. Which is why the Fo2 Enclave has them and the Fo3 Enclave uses them.

I have a deep issue with accepting the phrasing of a single slide and a single line, of which we never seen hard evidence or so much of a mention of it from Eden (all five minutes of his dialogue, for what that's worth).

And not even that, but a slide which eventually gets ignored anyway. And really, when it comes down to it, nothing in that slide is necessarily wrong. Granted, I'll take creative license but:

1. Unworthy of salvation.

Well really, Eden deemed the wastelanders not worthy to risk Enclave lives over. So in a sense. Yeah, that's true. He went nuclear.

2. Humanity would survive, only in its purest form.

Again. Yeah, that's true. There is a difference between non-pure and "pure" but the slide doesn't mention Eden actively believes the "non-pure" are worthless scum and threats to the Enclave's existence.


Another reason I like this:

Its not a damn compete repeat of the plotline of Fallout 2. With a cookie cutter imitation Richardson.

Eden actually comes out having a more unique view of things. Placing him in something of a moderate category on the Enclave scale.

In the post-Raven Rock era who is too say? I mean at that point Bethesda didn't care anymore either about actually justifying pithy details like "numbers".
Well yeah, he was quite firmly under the impression that the entire FEV endeavour has been "abandoned" months prior.
I still continue to see it as a the outburst of a confused, schizophrenic, man who couldn't separate his own individualism from the Big Brother-esque cult of personality Eden brainwashed everyone in Raven Rock with. He wanted to drag Eden along with him into "his" vision for the Enclave whether Eden wanted to or not because, despite it all, he loved and was as dependant on Eden as much as the rest of the poor bastards that f*cking machine ensnared.
Ghouls, super-mutants or maybe just more lies; fact remains that the ending slides only talk about humanity and show the deaths of humanoids.
Because it has always been our personal policy to do so, quite often when you and I are on the same side against people like Cannibal. I trawl through Evlbstards quote history when I have to and I'll do it here.
The only other alternative is that Eden's plan revolved around an in-effective virus and that maybe Autumn would have been right all along to just fight the mutants properly. We don't see any reduction in super-mutant numbers -even by the Potomac after-all. Or just maybe it's a hand-wave of an excuse to make Broken Steel compatible with both endings because, in-reality, the Brotherhood ending is going to be canon.

Nope it's still extra-ordinarily of note. Because Eden had absolutely no "sincere" involvement with the dealings at these camps, of-course Autumn doesn't want to massacre wasteland humans - we both know that.

The entire world was the victim because of what China did. They basically acted like a spoiled kid If I can't have it no one can and then nuked the world. From all the Enclave's research, mutants were a serious threat and that was the only way to return to any form of habitable world. The world couldn't be rebuilt with super mutants and such running around killing, destroying, and generally impeding progress.

I don't believe in spinning a web of pure speculation to try to fill in plotholes no. Not my job and I don't really care to be honest. Whether I believe in that or not however your speculations are flying in the face of actual in game evidence from Bethesda.


Okay let's say they removed it. They didn't change it unless by making it completely ineffective on every level which alters nothing about the motivations and personalities behind the plan in the first place.

They aren't even really camps to start. I see no tents and I see no beds and I sure as hell don't seen any fences, nore do I see bodies of wastelanders.

"Wastelanders" is a loose term. Anyone living in the wasteland is a "wastelander." Ghouls, slavers, raiders, cannibals, super mutants, people of Megaton, Rivet City are all wastelanders.

Eden wouldn't want the scum to be included, he would remove them and keep the good.