Understatement of the century.

Again, to paraphrase Groucho Marx: "I don't want to belong to an Enclave that would accept me as a member".

Twice. They were taken out by one man twice, first on the west coast, by a bloody tribal of all people. They failed to learn from this, so they tried the same idiotic plan on the east coast, with the exact same results, getting owned by a teenager with daddy issues. Unless they get some more intelligent leadership, I can't see the Enclave as anything but bumbling pantomime villains.

Their leadership is intelligent enough, they just have to overcome all the bad writing. I mean seriously, the final battle before Broken Steel made no sense at all and looked like it was created by Michael Bay.

Which is anything, speaks to the level of brokenness with which the writers of the series must resort to in order to have the Enclave be defeated.

This is especially prevalent in Fallout 3, where they built up the power of the Enclave so much that to have them beaten by the Brotherhood would be ridiculous. And Bethesda knew this: so they created a Deus Ex Machinima and just had the player character beat them.

The fact that they are beaten twice reflects nothing on the intelligence of the leadership, only on the poor quality of writing the Enclave has been handed.

Give Enclave soldiers the ability to pause time and consume several stim-paks and then we'll see. The problem, if anything, is that the Enclave are made to be so powerful that the only way to defeat them is by ignoring what's been previously established.

Oh yeah, and in Fallout 3 you can beat someone in power-armour to death with a nail-and-board... make of that game what you will.

I mean by that same logic I could kill everyone in the Pentagon, guess they all must be really crappy soldiers too right?

Yes. Wipe away the horrors the wasteland brought, create a new world, a better world, a safer world.

1: The Enclave are fascists. You saw what pre-war America had become from all the tidbits you find: a police state where freedom of speech had become a hollow mockery of what it was meant to be. They made America become what America beheld a hundred and thirty years before.

2: They're racists. Who the hell are they to say they're "superior"? If looking at things from a Darwinian perspective, they are actually inferior, as they have not been exposed to the new environment they helped create out of the entire world, and thus were not exposed to natural evolutionary forces to better adapt to it.

3: They are colossally stupid. I mean, COME ON, they thought it was a good idea to use a biological weapon! And one that has proven to be notoriously unreliable at the absolute best. If they used the mFEV either time (in FO2 or FO3), they would have doomed themselves, as the FEV would eventually target them when natural evolution runs its course. Earth would be dead.

4: They are heartless. Just look at Colonel Autumn: he guns down a scientist casually in cold blood simply because Dad was being uncooperative. And on the more macroscopic scale, they thought it'd be easier just to nuke the world and deal with things afterwards. They are directly responsible for the apocalypse.

The Enclave deserved to burn for these four points. Heartless brainless fascist racists. A pre-war relic, and one directly responsible for the scorching of the world.

But...the http://www.wallpapers-online.net/wallpapers/2013/01/Fallout-enclave-warriors-power-armor-1024x1024.jpg, man!

1. You are assuming the Enclave were incharge of the pre-war United States. You also don't seem to have an understanding of what America was like during the 1950s. It wasn' all peace and love and free speech everywhere. Just look up Joseph Mccarthy. Commies behind every rock and it was very much an "us vs them" mentality. Fallout is the 1950s mindset carried on to 2077. They aren't the only faction that can be seen as "facist" but since when did "facist" mean "kill everyone"? Facist is "I know better then you, so you will do what I say or else." As far as I can tell the Enclave didn't concern themselves with what the people of the wasteland did.

2. They aren't racist. How are they racist? They are against mutation. In their eyes the people of the wasteland are a different species. The Enclave aren't going around killing people based on the colour of their skin or religious background. Also the Enclave do recognize the people of the wasteland could actually be better then them, just ask President Richardson.

CO: "Maybe we're changing into a better version of the human race. Did you ever think of that?"
PR: "Very possible, indeed. In which case, our mission is even more vital to the survival of the human race."
CO: "What do you mean by that?"
PR: "If your kind is allowed to flourish it'll mean the end of the human race as we know it. We can't allow radioactive freaks to squeeze humans into extinction."
CO: "I think you're overestimating things a bit."
PR: "Not at all. Look to the future. Sure muties and men could get along for a while, but before you know it, the numeric pressure of your kind would tell."

They don't like mutants, but alot of other factions don't like them either. The Enclave just had more of a standered to what defines "mutant."

3. Wow, just wow. Are you even aware that in Fallout 2 the Enclave created an vaccine for their virus and it worked. So they would have been just fine. The virus would have been carried by the Jet Stream killing all humaniod life on the planet. In Fallout 3 the Enclave somehow made it more refined so it wouldn't harm them. The virus would burn itself out as it was designed to do. Remember it was a wonder weapon created with Fallout SCIENCE! So how is that stupid?

4. Augustus was the one that wanted to us Project Purity as a means of gaining people's support, so he could rebuild. How is that heartless? It was Eden as machine who wanted to use Project Purity to kill the people of the wasteland.

You also act like they are the only faction with blood on their hands.

A post I made sometime ago but it fits here as well:

Richardson didn't want more power. He was already the President of the United States of America for life. How much more power can one person have? Richardson and the Enclave saw themselves as the last Americans left alive. When they encountered armies of Super Mutants and other mutations such as ghouls, they had to act to save themselves.

For people that think the Enclave are evil Nazis, just do this one thing. Picture yourself as "Average Joe Citizen" living on Control Station Enclave, the only part of America left. The entire American government is stationed on the Rig.

Now your job as "Average Joe Citizen" is to monitor the Vault experiments. Now its just an average run of the mill day watching Vault 17 when all of a sudden a huge horde of Super Mutants bust into the Vault and start killing and capturing everyone

Then you learn Vault 17 isn't the only such Vault to suffer this fait. A huge army of Super Mutants is rampaging across the Western United States, very close to Control Station Enclave. Who knows how big and far this army of freaks has grown.

Then you learn that there is another form of mutant, Ghouls!

Through some research you learn that Ghouls were once humans and they became ghouls through radiation. That you too could become a ghoul. That everyone on the mainland America has mutated in some way, and interbreeding with them could produce some other horrible mutant.

Now as "Average Joe Citizen" place yourself in the 1950s "B" Monster Movie mindset. What would you want your government to do?

Would you:
A ) want them to make peace with the Super Mutants and Ghouls so that you can live peacefully amongst them?

B ) Call in the national guard, the army, marines, airforce and any one else with a gun to kill all the Monsters?

And as "Average Joe Citizen" you would want your government to deal with the Monsters with a wonder weapon that would spare the lives of America boys in uniform and be cheap. So President Richardson came up with his wonder weapon. The FEV Curling-13, which would kill all the Monsters and make everyone safe.

Funny how you mention enclave being us govt and then aeking how the average us citizen shoukd feel. Given how the enclave or at least those who made up the enclave at its beginning were responsible for destroying the majority of average american citizens.

It's a lesson that needs to be learned. There are no average American citizens left. They were all destroyed during tue great war. Whether on the mainland or the rig. These are not average american citizens anymore. Holding on to some dead notion of average citizen is just sad. Especially when your line caused that past way of life to cease

Killing averyone on the planet for your groups mistakes is even more sad when you factor that there are tgose on vaults who will be killed as well. These people are possibly the most innocent pure strain left.

This.

You can call the Enclave alot of damn things. But racists isn't one of them. A super-mutant is not a "race" of humanity, and the Enclave does not view them as such.

Its species-ism if anything. An "us" versus "them" mentality with the belief that if they don't act, the human race will become extinct.



Point of contention: Eden's stated goal was not to kill the people of the wasteland. He never mentioned anything about the virus specifically targeting wastelanders, not in the same vein Richardson did.

Eden was targeting extreme mutation, animal and humanoid. Wastelanders were unfortunate collateral damage. Not targets.

The fundamental key (and really only) difference between Autumn and Eden was who was willing to take that collateral damage for what it was. Eden was willing. Autumn was not.

Again you are assuming the Enclave were responsible for the Great War. They believe themselves to the the United States government, what is left of America. But we don't know for sure that the Enclave were actually running the United States government in any official way. There is nothing tying them to the Great War. If you believe they did, then Richardson would disagree clearly saying China launched first and that America was barely able to get "their birds up."

In their minds they are what's left.

But he does go on about pure blood humans. Saying that the LW might be ok since he comes from a Vault. So in that context, the virus would kill the human wastelanders as well, leaving only "pure blood humans."

Richardson explains that all wastelanders are mutated. Eden would have the same belief even if he didn't openly say it. But he said it with his talk of "pure blood."

In the Fallout 3 ending slides we see wastelanders dead.

Edit: Sorry I get what you were saying now. He doesn't say they weren't targets does he? Richardson talks as if the wastelanders who die do so to save humanity or something like that. But in the end to me they were targets as well.

He never mentions the term "pure blood humanity". When he discusses the LW surviving his exact quote is:

"Anyone or anything that has been affected by mutation will die. You will likely be immune, given your upbringing in the vault. Likewise, the good people of the Enclave will be unaffected as well. I understand that you may have become sympathetic to individuals in your travels, individuals this will possibly eliminate. Please understand, that sacrifices must be made for the greater good."

Eden never actually mentions the pure-blood humanity concept. He doesn't call wastelanders "inferior" and he doesn't refer to them as a threat whatsoever. Just that he's willing to accept wastelander collateral. That, is the difference. Autumn will not and can not accept wastelander death, because he doesn't think its worth it.

But "pure blood" is the context of what he is saying. But I get what you mean. They were to be sacraficed for the "greater good" if you will. That there was no way to target just ghouls and super mutants.

Frankly I don't think so. I've come to this conclusion after time spent reviewing Eden's dialogue and frankly, I found no indication that Eden believed the wastelanders were a threat that needed to be taken care of or that they were "inferior."

He might have placed less importance on them than Enclave citizenry (obviously) but he doesn't refer to them as a threat like Richardson did. Richardson actively wanted to wipe out the wastelander population. Eden seems to have just wanted to destroy the present hostile mutagens, at the cost of wastelander death.

In other words: if there were no super-mutants, or ghouls, or any sort of hostile abomination. I don't think Eden would release the FEV. Richardson might.

Eden? I don't think so.


I personally think this has been of a bit of an oversight on Eden's belief system. We assume he taunts pure-blood humanity, but I'm not so sure the evidence actually supports that.

Eden and Autumn, as far as I'm concerned, don't differ on what wastelanders are. They differ on whether or not they should be fought for at the cost of Enclave soldier's lives.

Hence Eden's, "His humanity clouds his objectivity" quote. And not "he's supporting wastelander mutants" or something of the like.

ive already stated that the pre war government set in motion the events that led to the great war. they have a hand in it as much as any other government.
they are also responsible for the manufacture of and militarized testing of the FEV virus.
at its start, the post war enclave was comprised of those from the the political and military indistrial complex. \
if you are saying that they had no ties to the pre war government you are saying they have no constitutional right to be even a remnant of the USG.

they know of those in vaults. "in their minds" ..... they would be failing to account for a huge contigent of what would be much closer to "average american citizens" than they ever were. t

the fact is, if the enclave at the events of FO2 had only scouted the west coast of the US, they have absolutely no basis to assume that they are "whats left"

heh "west coast overrun with muties derived from FEV manufactured by the pre war govt you claim to be a remnant of? Lets kill every humanoid on the entire planet!"

by all means dont use the power and tech you sit on to take stock of whats left of the human race and distinguish humans from mutiess prior to killing absolutely everyone on the planet but yourselves.

That is something to think about since you put it that way.

Add to that, that Eden exposed the Enclave presence in the wasteland in the first place. But I don't get why he would try to get the people to like, to side with, aid the Enclave. If he knew that in the end he would have to kill them? Maybe some hope that some would survive?

Why not create some vaccine for human wastelanders? Could be not enough resources. What about just going in and killing the mutants with good old plasma?

I am saying you can't say for sure that Enclave were the ones who made the call to militerize FEV. Which BTW was hoped it would create super humans. How is that bad?

I believe Enclave members were apart of the government that worked in the shadows and used the Great War to take power. Others believe what we know as the Enclave formed as a group after the Great War.

But are you saying the Enclave are bad because they were apart of or dervived from the Pre-War political and military indistrial complex? I got news for you if you are saying that. Alot of people were tied up in that. The 1950s was a very parinaud time. Communist witch hunts. China going communist. The Korean War, iron curtain creating West vs East, Cuba going communist and so on and so on, the smallest thing could spark World War 3. American citizens had yet to openly question or "rebel" against the culture in the 1950s. This is the America of 2077.

Also China invaded America. America fought back. China launched nukes. America and other launched in return. How is that America's fault? Fighting back against a hostile nation invading is a bad thing?

If you think about it, this actually helps to explain Enclave radio a bit. When Eden is talking to the wastelanders, he is actually meaning everything he says to them. Which is why he cares to do it in the first place. He wants the wastelanders to be a part of the United States.

He just doesn't tell them that a war is being waged, and that the Enclave is going to have to go nuclear at the cost of many wastelander lives. Because why do that, that'll just set off panic? Anyone who might survive though? He'd welcome them.

Also helps to explain Anna Holt: Eden didn't object. Stiggs: Eden didn't object to him either.

The Lonewander? He doesn't care if he is a mutant or not. Remember when you said Eden should have had him tested? Well what if he didn't care. It covers that as well. He wouldn't mind if his confidant is a wastelander. If he survives? Great. If he doesn't? Ah well. Moving on. Just one more collateral death.


It fits so many different things and fills in a hell of alot of plot holes.




Or the unique FEV-87 strain doesn't allow for the virus to have a innoculation in the same way that the Curling 13 did.

Or like you said, the Enclave simply doesn't have the manpower and resources to pull that off. Too many soldiers would die trying to distrubite the vaccine and then its just not worth it.



And see, that's Autumn's plan.

Autumn wants to duke it out mono-e-mono and if they win they win and if they don't they don't. Eden doesn't want to take the chance that they might not be able to take on the super-mutant and other abomination's threat without taking significant causuaties.

Its a bit like bombing a city in a war. You could have your soldiers go in and fight out the enemy one-on-one but at the cost of your own lives. Or you could just bomb the city into oblivion and accept civilian death.

Autumn's in the former, Eden is the latter.

It does actually make sense. We stumbled on something here lol.
It would also explain why Augustus "rebelled" but was still loyal to Eden in the end. They both agreed on the over all goals, but not the method. He still fells loyal to him, but saw no other way to save the people and by doing so save America.


Also makes sense. As you said Augustus doesn't want the collateral damage the virus would cause and Eden doesn't see any other way that wouldn't cause the deaths of Enclave members and the expense of precious resources.

good intentions. ______________________

whether or not they were a shadow govt or regrouped govt and MIC, they are a part of it. they played a role in the great war.

it all comes down to the last oil field for me.
had the great war never happened, the US would have soon found itself with enough cheap and abundant power using fusion technologies to sustain itself indefinitely.
taking that rig was greedy and kicked everything off. it may have happened further down the line. but taking the oil where the rig is located not only ensured it, but exaccerbated it, making them culpable.

as above. they invited the invasion. they put china in a position where they had to invade to not fall off like the rest of the world after the resource wars.
the us really ddint need that field for anyting maybe a strategic foothold, but it would mostly seem as an FU to china. secluding yourselves from the rest of the world is one thing. sabotaging a nation so it cant survive is another.
the pre war government was morally corrupt and inhumane. 1950s mentality or not. the enclave carries on that tradition. that is notr a good thing. why? because it seems to cause global nuclear warfare. you cant say no one pre war would have though about the rammifications.
so. . that shadow givt or regrouped govet. they are eaither aiming for MAD or gambling that it wont happen with the lives of everyone on the planet.
either way, [censored] those guys.

in case it was missed:
the fact is, if the enclave at the events of FO2 had only scouted the west coast of the US, they have absolutely no basis to assume that they are "whats left"

heh "west coast overrun with muties derived from FEV manufactured by the pre war govt you claim to be a remnant of? Lets kill every humanoid on the entire planet!"

by all means dont use the power and tech you sit on to take stock of whats left of the human race and distinguish humans from mutiess prior to killing absolutely everyone on the planet but yourselves

Again nothing is saying the Enclave ever intended to create super mutants. We all know they hate them. You can't fault them for that or that they were even responsible for it in the first place.


So they are guilty because of the supposed sins of their possible ancestors? Give me a break. We are all guilty by that logic if you look back far enough.



So you're saying they had a machine that let them see into the future were they could see that in the distant future they would have such tech?

Hindsight is always 20-20.

You also have to remember China was the enemy. The Rig was very close to America. We also don't know all the info that led up to that. Again you can place blame on anyone if you go back far enough. Example. We wouldn't have had World War 2 (yes I said WW2) if Archduke Franz Ferdinand wasn't assasinated, which kicked off World War One. We wouldn't have had WW1 if all the ethnic and religious tensions that went back countless generations didn't cause a militant group to kill Ferdinand.

Again we don't even know if the Enclave existed before the War, and they aren't the only faction that "carries on that tradition."


Uh... They did. Didn't you notice all the Enclave patrols, Enclave activity at Mariposa and New Reno? They knew full well what was going on and they didn't like it. They would have also seen the rise of the Master's Army. Just because the Master was destroyed doesn't mean the threat is no longer out there.

Agreed.

Everyone just assumes that Eden follows Richardson's rhetoric to the letter, and we have just been assuming that all the inconsistencies when we assume this are just that: inconsistencies in his character.

However, when you take Eden for what he actually says, everything falls into place to a certain degree. Far better than assuming he is advocating for something he is not anyway.


Indeed.

Their difference wasn't all that fundamental really. It wasn't some sort of a pure-minded elitist disagreeing with a radical humanist. It was two leaders disagreeing on what is an acceptable path to take for the same end goal.

At least, that's what I'm starting to think was the case. Based purely off of in-game evidence from Eden and Autumn.


Exactly.