I would also add that it would explain why Augustus didn't use the self destruct codes himself. It could be that he obtained the codes and recorded that tape in his darkest hour, but in the end desided it wasn't the way to go.

He attacks the LW possibly out of panic. He learns that Eden wants to go through with it. He thinks the LW is going to side with Eden so he acts. Might not have been the smartest thing to do. Might have wanted to wait till the LW and Eden were done talking. He could have then questioned or captured the LW to see if he had the virus.

Bad writing is still bad writing thow. But yeah if we assume that Eden wasn't out to kill all the people just because they were mutated like Richardson, things start making more sense.

i am saying that good intentions pave the road to hell. thats no smoking gun for my point. just stating the obvious that they were playing with fire.



no.. the idea is that learning from past mstakes as to not repeat them is salvation. ignoring the past and repeating it is where the guilt comes from.




they were funding the research for said technology. if am am to know that this tech was on the horizon it is only because it was occouring, and was somethign the government and MID would have known about.

yes yes. if adam and eve hadnt bitten the apple we would all be in shangril la..
the point is, you have people in the military who look at these things. calculate the risks. there is no way they just willy nilly decided to take the oil field. it would have been looked at strategically. and one of those contigencies would have shown that china, who had nukes would see it as an attempt to exterminate them.
what they did was the equivalent of a chess move that put themselves, the entire world into check.
it would have been much less rash to monitor chinese activity and use a good defense as a great offense. its poor planning at the least and should have been a lesson learned by the post war enclave. all those lives lost. how would any "decent" group not feel shame- loss for what had happened and try to do better than their predecessors?



so... the pacific ocean to as far east as new reno you say? how is that taking stock of whats left of the world before deciding to kill all humanoids on the entire planet? a this point, there is no reason to think that any human survivors on other continents were enemies.
its the same kind of thinking that led to the great war. they are repeating the past by throwing the baby out with the bathwater, over what could be a somewhat local threat. isolated on an oil rig they were in no real or immediate danger from anyone. but they dint take the time to see if other means could work.. same as pre war
complete disreagard for all other life but their own. how is that not a bad thing?

Well if they are the continuation of the Government... then of-course they are still responsible - it is still be the entity.

They do, but unfortunately just because it makes more sense doesn't necessarily mean that it's applicable. I mean really, you're telling me that Eden's really did only want to kill the mutants and then incorporate the survivors? I see no reason to believe that's the case, it's obvious in the way that he tries to sell his plan to you; Enclave radio is also pure-fantasy. I mean by this logic Eden was also being truthful when he said that the Lone Wanderer would replace Autumn... which is just insane.

Eden actually comes out better if you agree that the entire thing was a ploy and emulating Richardson was the goal all along.

But again we don't know if it was the Enclave with the matches.



No, you're saying "their ancestors did something wrong so therefore they are." To the Enclave the pre-war government did nothing wrong. You can disagree with that, but that doens't make them bad.


They are researching that stuff now. So should we just stop using all fossil fuels and nuclear power right now? Cause in a hundred years we might have cold fusion or something. The Fallout Universe was the same. They were working on it yes, but they weren't there yet, and they were running out of resources. It was take that oil or let millions if not more of your people starve and freeze to death, the total collapse of their way of life. Just like we can't stop using nuclear and fossil fuels today in the hopes that something better will come along. We need to keep using them in the mean time, till those tech show up or face total collapse. Pre-War America had to keep the oil flowing till the tech was invented and they didn't know when it would be.


You don't know history very well IMO, that or you believe in every crazy ass conspiracy there is. I could use several real life examples but the mods wouldn't like it. You can't calculate the future like Mr.House can. Thats pure science fiction.



The Oil Rig is not in the middle of the pacific ocean it is off the coast of California. Within Vertibird flight range and that isn't far, like 500 miles or so. Have you ever heard of continental shelves? America doesn't end at the water. Every nation along the shore owns out the territory for several if not more miles out into the ocean. Continental shelves extent nations clames to what they own. It is happening today. Its why everone is fighting over the North Pole. Russia says they own the North Pole because their continental shelf expands to it. Since America owns North America, they would naturally say they own the oil where the Chines were because it is apart of their continental shelf.

This all boils down to condeming the child for the fathers sin in your view. "Oh pre-war America was bad and the Enclave act like pre-war America so they are bad."

"Maoist Communist China are the innocent victims of mean old oil hungry America" is what I am getting from this conversation.

On the contrary, in one of the few times Cannibal can claim to be 100% correct, by perusing the utter destruction of the Chinese nation with their invasion the Americans broke MAD. Mutually assured destruction only works if you have something to be destroyed by your enemy and it was clear that the US wasn't stopping until it occupied the entire country; so they fired their arsenal whilst they still had it.

It's inconceivable that anyone in America could not have foreseen that nuclear war would be the inevitable outcome of their campaign.

China didn't have to launch its nukes. So it is in no way America's fault.



I would rather exept Eden at some level really didn't care if the wastelanders were mutanted or not and only wanted to kill the extreme mutants, then accept that the plothole, nonsensical BS story of Fallout 3 is still somehow canon without making a damn bit of sense.

What Lt and I were talking about does make sense. You two as the Enclave pros should sit down and talk it out

And if China didn't invade Alaska America wouldn't have gone to war with China. China launched first. They had the option not to do it. They could have accepted that they lost but they refused to and took the world down with them.

What evidence is there to suggest that it isn't? Eden never mentions the wastelanders as threats or targets. The only time he mentions them is to say they are unfortunate sacrifices.

He never checks the LW to see if he is a wastelander because he doesn't care. He doesn't mind Anna Holt and Stiggs being brought in, and in this case Enclave radio actually makes sense instead of throwing hands up in the air and saying "Well it was just nothing." Or he was just "playing" at being President. When the words behind the seemingly non-sensical message actually have a meaning and purpose behind them, the existence of the radio is at least plausible.

Its perfectly reasonable.


Replace him as Colonel? No. As confidant? Perhaps. He never offers the LW a military commission, only an advisory capacity.

If your goal is to eventually take in some wastelanders in some form. The use of the LW as some type of "advisor for wasteland affairs" is not at all insane. Its not a bad idea at all in bring in an individual to your administration who knows and understand the wasteland and its inhabitants and can very easily help to sway opinion.

Are you high? There a sovereign nation being brutalised by a foreign power; this isn't some game where the loser has to accept defeat. That's why nuclear weapons exist. The US acted completely in-spite of all common sense and perused the utter destruction of a nation with a massive nuclear arsenal; there is no way that they cannot foreseen that as a probably outcome.


Funnily enough the same thing that Richardson calls them too, sacrifices. Eden is a snake-oil merchant, he lies on the radio and lies to the Vault 101


No, it's because he thinks that he comes from a Vault.


This is what this is really about, finally justifying the existence of that superficial radio station. Eden is entirely aware of the potency of the virus and that his entire fan-base will be culled. And Anno Holt and Sitggs are just assets, like the Salvatore's.


Well considering his massacre of his own personnel I should be surprised if he offers the mass-murder Lone Wanderer a Presidential Pardon and then bring him into the higher-levels of government then - my mistake, it's completely justifiable.


It's a terrible idea to bring aboard probably one of the most despised individuals to the Enclave into the government as a top-level advisors. Also, considering that the virus is designed to wipe out most of the non-mutated human race (as Eden fully well knows) it's entirely non-sensical.

Your both also forgetting that Autumn performed his stunt in complete ignorance of the FEV research and development still being continued, he was perfectly content that he had brought Eden around to his way of thinking.

Also why did Eden modify the FEV virus to spare only the genetically pure if he didn't want to kill non-hostile wastelanders? He could've just stuck with the vaccine and therefore been in a position to reduce the collateral damage and even recruit more wastelanders to his cause. Modifying the virus in the way he did doesn't fit with what is being claimed here. Why tailor the virus to specifically target people you ostensibly don't want to kill?

Furthermore there are wastelanders being killed at the genetic compliance checkpoints. If both Eden and Autumn only wanted to kill hostile mutations that doesn't make any sense.

Sacrifices and, more importantly, threats to the existence of humanity as Richardson defines it. I see no such speak from Eden. No dialogue suggests it and we just assume so. While claiming the problems that entail with doing so as "plot-holes."


And one would think that he would check something like that. Unless of course, he could care less if his chosen instrument is a wastelander or not.


A small part perhaps yes. It certainly helps explain it to a degree. Although primarily this is about getting right what I believe Eden's true intentions are. Based upon his dialogue and what we see in-game.


I don't believe the Salvatore's recieved food, water, and shelter within the secluded Government facility.


Non-mutated human race where? Across the world? No. Only in the CW. Its a localized strike. Not a world-wide calamity.

What happens when the Enclave begins to expand outwards? And take in people's not plagued by a massive infestation of Super-mutants? Eventually there is going to be a sizable population of wastelanders that survives, and this is assuming that the virus has a 100% kill rate for everyone not Enclave. Which I'm not entirely convinced of either.


Which means what? That he wasn't aware Eden was still planning on using the nuclear option.

A bit like a President not telling his general they are going to drop a hell of a bomb on the enemy. Not the difference between two fundamentally opposed ideologies.


Only ghouls from what I can see. Find a checkpoint where there is a substantial number of wastelander dead. I can only think of one particular checkpoint which has one, maybe two wastelander dead.



It's been tailored to target all mutations. Including animal. Such as Yao Guai and Deathclaw. Which Richardson's did not.

That's the key difference.

China invaded first. They started it. They finished it. Do you really think China would have stopped fighting if America didn't go after them? It would be like saying the Nazis and Japan would have ended War 2 peacefully if we just stopped attacking them, attacking them for their attacks on us in the first place. Sure they might have agreed to end it all, then five or so years later we would be at it again once they regrouped.

China would have done the same. It wouldn't have ended peacefully if America just stopped after they pushed China out of Alaska. As you said they were willing to fight to the last. People like that wouldn't just give up and make peace with America.

This crap that America invided the attack cause they took the oil. Its nuts. Its like saying America invited the attack on Pearl Harbor by cutting off the Oil to Japan because of their war on China. It was alls America's fault! If only they let Japan continue its brutail genocidal war on China! And if you believe Cannibal America would have known it would have ended in an attack, cause they just should have

It could be that by cutting off China's Oil in Fallout they were hoping that it would cause the collapse of the Chinese communist government. Sure there was a history lesson there. But you can't say that their goal was to invite an attack. In the Fallout Universe it was "Us vs Them." If China got that oil America could very well have collapsed.

http://www.falloutwiki.com/Fallout_3_Enclave_outposts#Enclave_main_Camps

Multiple mentions of sites where wastelanders are being exterminated by Enclave troops. Even if the wiki is completely wrong about most of these (I don't have Fallout 3 at all so I have no way to confirm) the fact that you've acknowledged that there are some is problematic on its own. What were those wastelanders killed by Enclave troops on accident or just by some rogues disobeying orders? Did they charge the heavily armed guys in power armor and get killed in self-defense? It's pretty clear how we're supposed to interpret this.


So Eden is willing to sentence thousands of people to painful deaths because he's afraid of wildlife? This doesn't strike you as bizarre? It still doesn't explain why there's no mention of possible use of the vaccine either.

Could be that they couldn't make it any more refinded. That the only way to effectively kill super mutants and ghouls, would also result in the deaths of wastelanders.

The FEV could have come from Vault 87 can since that was a different type could have introduced a whole new set of problems.

We also have to remember half if not more of the orginal Curling Virus reseach was lost on the Oil Rig. Curling says that there is enough information betweent he Rig and Navarro for the Enclave to start over. The only way to makes sure they can't is to destroy the Rig. Well Navarro wasn't destroyed, what information was there could have been enough to try again but they got different results clearly.

So there are a number of factors that could explain why the virus in Fallout 3 couldn't just kill ghouls and super mutants and leave everyone else alone.

They are killing wastelanders at that those location? I don't think so. I didn't see that. Maybe Brotherhood and Outcast, slavers and raiders. You know the crazies and historical enemy of the Enclave.

But I haven't seen them just gunning down normal wastelanders.


Could be that he was hoping some would survive. A vaccine like I already said might not have been possible and even if it was would require alot of resources and time as well as risk Enclave lives.

zfsdfsdfsfd

Or it could be that the virus specifically tailored to kill some things and leave others untouched might have been specifically designed to kill the things its designers wanted dead and spare the rest. It's a radical concept granted.

On the contrary his talk of sacrifices and then his genetically tailored virus, developed by the group which reports only to him, used to cull most of the population gave me the idea; seriously, you think that this was just some heavy-handed way of getting rid of the Super-Mutants?


Why? Either he lives or he was mutant trash anyway, why should Eden care either way when he's equally at home gunning down his own soldiers? He's an amoral machine.


Because their roles didn't require them to enjoy such luxuries, without their trade however the Project would have been unable to be finished; however they were still just assets to be used and then expended when the time came to it... like a Lone Wanderer.


You think that the Enclave and it's few hundred people will be "expanding" beyond the sizable area it's just culled within the Lone Wanderers life-time?


Which means that Autumn's action against Eden wasn't the result of their different ends and the means to-which they were reached... because Autumn had no idea that his means hadn't become official Enclave policy; meaning your entire justification for this series of events falls apart.


Yes it is; it's the entire difference between their ideologies according to you.


Where is that ever said, I see no evidence of it in the ending-slides. Just because Eden says "mutation" you assume it to mean any mutated organism in the region? All the plants, all the animals and all the people?


I genuinely baffled by your failure to appreciate this; it doesn't matter who started it first, if you try and destroy a country that has a large stockpile of nuclear weapons then expect them to get used on you; they should have removed the Chinese from Alaska and then sued for peace, instead they decided to try and obliterate the Chinese state, the Chinese state with nuclear weapons. It wasn't even like they were just trying to nullify China either, it was a full-on invasion (WW2 style) - their victory could only have forced the Chinese government to launch its nuclear stockpile.

And for what? So the US could occupy all of China and piss away more of it's resources? I never said that the Americans were responsible for the entire war, I'm saying that their victory can only have entailed a Chinese nuclear strike and I can't see how nobody in America can have seen that coming.

Whatever you say Comrade

Seriously thow we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

To reassure myself, I just went into Fallout 3 and checked a couple of those camps. The first one didn't contain any human wastelanders. Only ghouls who were indeed marked as "wastelanders". The second didn't have any bodies whatsoever, which I can't verify is the case. As that could be an issue with my game.

Given that however, I'm willing to bet that the wiki is referring to the ghouls marked in-game as "wastelanders." They aren't marked as ghouls.


Why? I'd still assume there is a point at which a wastelander no longer is considered a human. Certain levels of radiation will eventually turn people far more mutated than what the average wastelander would be. I'm assuming these people were caught by the genetic compliance screening.

Hell why even have screening in the first place if you don't think there are people worth saving out there? Why not just kill em' all and let God sort em' out?


Did I say that?

Part of it is abominations like the Yao-guai, centaurs, and deathclaws. Which weren't covered by Richardson.

However lets not forget people like Raiders, and Talon Company. Both of which Eden holds a disdain for. Not to mention the Brotherhood.

He wants to wipe out human groups as well in order to take control. Doesn't mean he believes the wastelanders to be a threat however.

Andronicus has already admitted the existence of some dead wastelanders at at least one of the checkpoints. Why if neither Eden or Autumn wanted to kill them? This entire theory requires you to ignore concrete evidence from the game in favor of pure speculation


So Eden cares about the wastelanders and wants them to help rebuild society just not enough to work on further refining the virus (about which there is absolutely zero time pressure) or to risk having to fend off some hostile animals?

What makes you think they would have given up without an invasion? What would have been there to stop China from regrouping, rebuilding and improve on its tech and then try again later or attack others later on? As I said there are nations in history that simply would not have given up ever. It took every extreme means and or annihilation to stop them.

China by your logic also broke MAD. They invaded they United States. What happened if they were successful? America had nukes. China brough it all on themselves. There would have been no way America would sue for peace with China after they invaded and caputred United States home soil.

By the way, this whole "death camp" debacle. Yeah this is all likely on Autumn's orders, or at the very least Eden is maintaining the guise that he's been convinced by Autumn and as-such is only killing ghouls. Next...

So Eden still wants to kill non-hostile mutants he just doesn't want to kill all the non-hostile mutants based on no evidence whatsoever? Seriously this is clear proof that the Enclave still has some sort of standard regarding who is human and who isn't that goes beyond super mutants and ghouls. Why would we assume Eden views this standard any differently from Richardson?


Because the Enclave has always recognized the existence of pure humans outside of its ranks? Eden even assumes you are one.


That's what your version of Eden apparently must believe. And you obviously wouldn't hand out the vaccine to your opponents so they would still die.