What if bethesda simply made it so that for those people who dont care about lore and want to do the main quest as a good character and complete all the good and bad guilds they can.But then also add side quests so that say for example somebody wants to be a good character for one playthrough they can not only complete the fighters, and mages guild questline but then they could also help the defenders of skyrim kill off the hierarchies of the evil guilds.

for example look at oblivions Wanted Posters of the gray fox.

bethesda could add wanted posters around the cities that lead to quests to kill off low ranking members of the theives guild and assassins guild (whether its the db or the morague tongue) for the "good" characters that later lead to killing the higher ranking members. because these npcs are already in the game this wouldnt involve to much work on bethesdas part but would also allow for players to feel that if they are a good character they can actually help the people of skyrim out. The first side quest will eliminate the characters ability to join the opposing factions.As they continue to kill off the evil guilds the evil npcs that are left alive will either go into further hiding or openly attack the player.

This is a relatively simple fix to oblivions lack of tension between good and evil. The good players would realize that being good doesnt mean you can just walk through the cities and talk to db members and theives guild members like your evil while also allowing the less "hardcoe" players to simply skip these side quests and never choose a side allowing them to do both the good and evil guilds as if this feature wasnt even in the game.

The evil version would simply be the opposite of the good version where the theives guild doyans would give you side quests that involve stealing huge treasures directly from the fighters and mages guilds. and the assassins guild would offer side quests that have you kill low and high ranking members of the good guilds. Eventually the player could kill off the entire evil or good guilds (depending on their side) but not without facing the wrath of the guilds they are trying to destroy creating a sense of immersion that was not offered in oblivion.

Bethesda could even add the option of side quests to create a rivalry between the mages and fighters guilds where say a mage could try to elevate the mages guild above the fighters guild and therefore get rid of his ability to join the fighters guild while also starting a war between the two guilds. And same with the theives guild and assassins guild (although this would be a bit harder to implement unless the skyrim theives guild is ok with murder),

This is something that bethesda could actually do because they are not only trying to market their game to people who enjoy fully immersing themselves in the lore and factions of the elder scrolls. the bottom line is they have to try and sell as many copies of the game as they can. This feature allows them to both appeal to the mass market and give their hardcoe fans a bit of the experience they've been asking for.

Adding this feature as well as adding a toggle feature where you can turn off/on the ability to make your character eat drink and sleep to survive etc,,, would give the hardcoe fans great immersion and give the less rp fans the ability to play the way they want

thoughts?

I think the main problem with immersion in Elder Scrolls is the uncanny valley, nobody acts like real people. They take arrows like a pin cushion, hardly react to getting stabbed or being set on fire, have few distinct voices between them, fluctuate between moods, can be persuaded to like you by shoving gold at them or a random combination of four comments, ridiculous faces, mouths don't match words, and get caught on inch high side walks. This can be fixed and have been fixed in Fallout 3, I'm expecting the experience to be much more immersive in Skyrim.

A large part of Skyrim's development is creating a more natural world, with more natural NPC's. As of now, Bethesda has implemented the use of the very latest HAVOK engine, which will take huge steps in more realistic people, creatures, ect, off the bat. The "zoomed up" conversations will be gone, along with several other impressive changes. Im confident that Yahtzee's "uncanny valley" will be far improved from the last few Bethesda games.

Um, if it is as you say, then they haven't even REACHED the uncanny valley yet.

The uncanny valley is when it's so close to real life, but just a bit off, making it creepy or strange.

Just one thing: the Thieves Guild wasn't only for evil players... or was Robin Hood evil?

That's not uncanny valley at all ...

Uncanny valley would be something like Mitheldeh said



Yep, example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNdAIPoh8a4

thats a good point oblivions theives guild could technically be considered misunderstood. But to the majority of society they were considered evil (for those that knew it existed) plus i didnt want to get to elaborate with my idea before i saw if anyone else liked it

Robin Hood resides in that wonderful gray area.

I love your idea about taking rival questgivers out... but I would prefer if this was interwoven with quests in competing guilds, in a way that made it impossible to complete every guild with the same character!

I know that this is totally ignoring your point about 'satisfying hardcoe and casual players', but I honestly don't think that wanting actual competing factions that worry about shared loyalties makes me that 'hardcoe' a player. Surely a consistent world that makes sense is in everybody's interest?

What WOULD be fun is if you could join another guild on an 'undercover' basis and play some quests for them, only to betray all of their secrets (and maybe end up having to fight your way out of their territory).

It would be great if you could see your character's face on wanted posters...The Bruma statue was a fantastic touch.

I would rather there not be a bigger enforcement of concepts such as "good" and "evil." What some refer to as "villains" in the Elder Scrolls series are typically ambiguous, and that's what I really like about it.

To quote Mannimarco...
"We are after the same things, your guild and I. Yet you worry about 'good' and 'evil' and do not accept they are manifestations of the same thing. So you brand me a villain, and make vain attempts to destroy me."

Still though, I'd like branching paths and having options of how to complete quests and things like that.

that is an interesting point that come to think of it, i completely agree with the ambiguity of the good and evil stereotype in tes does make it interesting however isnt it pretty safe to say that the listener of the dark brotherhood cant also be the arch mage who also cant be the champion of cyrodil,,, etc even if you argue that there is no good and evil there simply isnt enough time in a day to hold all of these posts... a change similar to this could not only fix that but also fix the problem of being able to walk around cities in full listener garb and talk to guards like your a merchant... and also it would make being the leader of guilds actually feel like you have power and not just a stupid title... the worst part about oblivions guilds imo is that the previous leaders all had great background storys and tons of power then you get their rank and you basically go back to being a level one member.

Ironically, you gained more Infamy points from the Thieves Guild quest line than the Dark Brotherhood quest line.

Few people dare disrespect the dark brotherhood otherwise they may mistakenly eat the choke berries I put in there fruit bowl.

Oh, just do NOT give me evil points when I steal something. Give me evil points if I join the Dark Brotherhood, give me evil points if I prey on a sleeping NPC as a vampire, hell, give me evil points if I rub mort flesh on a guard's face--but please let me be a good thief!

I think that's why I've given up every time I attempted Fallout 3 & NV. I want to be a good guy, just a thiefy guy. :sadvaultboy:

There was no tension between good and evil in Oblivion because there was no battle between good and evil. The fight was between the unsuspecting peoples of Cyrodiil who feared the Oblivion gates and the mystery they brought with them and the invading armies of Oblivion wanting to be free of Oblivion and take Nirn as the plane for Mehrunes Dagon. It was just basically Cyrodiil versus Oblivion, that was tension enough. I don't see why there has to be fighting in between factions constantly in every game. It gets repetitive real quick and isn't realistic to have huge all out tensions between all factions everywhere. I mean, why do people think there were faction tensions anyhow? There was the mages guild vs the necromancers and the fighters guild vs the blackwood company and all the cities had their opinions of the other cities and most cities just thought Ocato was power hungry. There was plenty of strife in Oblivion, people just need to open their eyes.

The thing is that the world (the real world or a fantasy world) isn't as black and white as "Good vs. Evil" because Good and Evil are based on perception and not a set value. There is always some thing that is added into the fray than just good and evil that works the machinations of the events of the world.

yes, that is obvious i used the words good and evil simply as stereo archetypes of the guilds themselves,,, i was simply generalizing to get my point across. i think most people understand things arent as black and white as good vs evil. there is always a grey area.

the biggest thing i was hoping to get out of this thread was
1. should you be allowed to join every guild
2. should the listener or head rank of the assassins guild in skyrim be able to walk freely down the streets in his black hands gear as if he were a merchant or peasant or noble.
3. should all the guilds just go along parallel to each other or should they cross paths? i for one believe that it is unrealistic to think that there wouldnt be a rivalry between a fighting guild and a magic guild. i think most people would assume that both sides would have a bit of bias against each other and therefore more directly compete for the favor of both the people and the governments.
4.should you be able to destroy other guilds that your character doesnt like? whether politically or by other means (my suggested method was a systematic killing off of the other said guilds infrastructure)

Don't like most of the suggestions. If I want to play Im-Leet the Nord, then I'd like to be able to do just that.

Um, why would there be a rivalry between them? They aren't even involved in the same stuff! That'd be like a rivalry between the a Dodgers and the Lakers.

In Morrowind, it featured guilds that crossed paths frequently. You couldn't complete all guilds/factions on a single playthrough. For example, in a fighters guild quest, you had (correct me if I'm wrong here) the master of the thieves guild. So you couldn't complete the thieves guild quest line.

I enjoyed this, made me appreciate the fighters guild questline quite a bit, and added a nice dose of realism.

That sounds pretty much exactly like the Writ system in Fable.

Difference of opinion does not equate to "hardcoe" and "casual."