?? Couldn't we just have the bartender forcegreet the player when activating the kegs? Add a topic called "Fill my bottle" or something.
Activate keg -> forcegreet publican
Topic: Fill my jug/bottle[/i](or whatever)[/i]

"Whats that? You want to fill your jug(or something)? It'll cost ya 5 drakes."
or
"Whats that? You want to use the keg? It'll cost ya 5 drakes."
Yes
No

Could also add a greeting so that the forcegreet launches into the 'Fill my jug' topic or something that differs only by adding goodbye after answering.

I think it would work nicely. Only problem is if the PC has killed the publican or dragged him away with another mod. *shrugs* Could always do a health check on the publican, and if they are dead allow free drinks. xP Awesome drunk mod there. Kill the publican and the whole place would nuts with drunks clambering for free keg access.



Are you using any mods that effect how crime is dealt with? For example, there were some issues with Regional Crime (i think thats the name) that made it so that there were times that a crime would not be reported for some reason. (should be in the readme. Correct me if I"m wrong.)

No, no mods at all except the one I created for the testing with that... just MW and the expansions, because I want to test clean ulnless i'm actively looking for interaction results between mods.

The forcegreet would work well too, and could still use tokens. I'm hooked on the tokens, because I can see them as body loot and quest items.

So, we could have an onactivate > forcegreet, if gietitemcount token>1 >dialogue "go ahead" or if token <=0 "you have to buy a token only 5 gold"

Just a concept thing, there but it could work well.

I guess it's even more erratic than MW's usual detection then. So scripting against theft is a good idea after all.

I'm not sure I like the vending machine idea though, it just seems too "modern" or something... kinda out-of-place. But I daresay something else would work (eg you could use variables set through dialogue - that just sounds better, to me anyway).

I don't know if I am 100% keen on the token either, makes it too "Vending Machine" like to me I think...but, on the same note, it does make things a little more open like Tocatta mentioned (still able to steal wine that way).

The usage of tokens goes at least as far back as 1500 BC in Egypt. If allowing the player to purchase tokens from a bartender to represent refills at a wine cask is too modern for you, then you're about 3500 years behind the times.

If it sounds too much like a vending machine, then try to think of it more like buying a ticket at a movie theater. You buy it in advance and turn it in at the door when you get ready to watch a movie. If you watch a LOT of movies, you might buy a book of tickets to save money. The idea is much the same.

Oh. Well, I guess I'd better start catching up then.

Seems I was guilty of assuming that everything useful is a modern invention. I do know about that trap but I still fall into it on a regular basis. My bad.

However... Even given that, I still think it would be more natural to just ask the owner and arrange it through dialogue - less formal just seems better. I dunno, I'm totally stuck tryng to debug my scripts, I'm frustrated, I'm probably just being argumentative again, so feel free to ignore me :banghead:

I'd prefer dialog with the barkeep myself. I admit I'm not really digging the 'vending machine' idea myself.

I suppose I'd be fine if there were a messagebox saying you 'toss a token toward the barkeep' or something like that. *shrugs* Its not too big a deal for me I suppose. Just sharing ideas.

You kind of lost me there... I mean, you are dealing with the barkeep... At least according to the way I envision it. The sequence of events as I understand it so far would be:

You have acquired a token from the innkeeper or some other source, or you have not.

You activate the keg which brings up a forced greeting from the innkeeper If you have the token, he says "Oh good, go ahead." or something like that. 1 token is removed from your inventory,

If you do not have a token, he tells you to buy the drink, whatever it is by purchasing one or more tokens. He takes your money or you decide to do without. One other thing to add here is also the possibility that you may have encountered bandits or some other suchlike, and you may decide to sell the innkeeper your unwanted tokens.

The keg activates filling the empty mug or bottle you have in your inventory.

I know that I'm the one who said "vending machine", but it's a different concept than an automated system. Unless of course I am mistaken about the order of events... which can always be true. Or events can be altered, it's just that thiss what I was thinking of when the token idea was first presented.

I'm liking the token idea. It's a very elegant solution - provides for crime consequences and thieving RP, still allows the player to fill from the keg if the proprietor becomes "indisposed", adds quest and loot options (however, I'd suggest that the tokens have no gold value so they'll only be useful with kegs).

And combining with dialogue for added immersion is all the more welcome!

Indeed, I am feeling it is almost the "only" way to go to ensure all aspects covered nicely. I think this is a good approach the more I consider it, even if it does come out vending machine like or not (though, I think with some good scripting and use of dialogue it could be made to feel right).

Would probably still want some different keg types though, for those not found in taverns perhaps (they could be used to fill containers or drink from assuming not caught by someone) - the ones in the basemant of the Census and Excise come to mind, and I would assume there would be some others. Refill tokens would feel out of place with these, I think.

Ah okay. Like what I mentioned.

I thought that the term 'vending machine' was more of a get tokens and go to keg. Activate keg, refills and removes 1 token. (as if you put the token into the keg like a vending machine)

Is there a way to still allow for stealing without tokens? o.O For those drunks stealthy enough to refill their mug without being seen? There is a GetDetected function that we might be able to use if the keg is near the owner. You would just have to be out of site of the owner that way though.

Yeah, there would have to be two or three types minimum. Like that quest near Caldera, after you take out the baddies there is a keg or two that couldn't possibly stop anyone from getting the goodies.



Yeah, GetDetected could work but I it seems I heard it uses a lot of resources, so if the tavern is crowded, or there is music or something it might be too much. We'd have to ask a master scripter, I think...

Unfortunately, there's no script function to determine the owner of an object. If you wanted the script to check to see if the owner was present or if the player was detected by the owner, you would need to have a different script for each keg because the owner's ID would need to be written into the script. Of course, if you want the script to forcedialog with the owner, the same limitation applies. The keg can't simply forcedialog, because then it would try to force the keg itself to talk to someone. It would need to use forcedialog with a fix-arrow to force the command to be used on someone else. If it's to be with the owner, the same problem applies as detecting the owner. Using a generic remote NPC suffers from the problem that forcedialog won't work unless the player has been in the same cell as the remote NPC within the past 72 hours.

On the other hand, while I can certainly understand that the automation of a vending machine may feel out of place, I can't help but wonder if it would be so offensive to as many people if neildarkstar and I hadn't actually used that phrase in discussing the idea. I don't believe he was actually thinking of turning kegs into vending machines when he said it, nor was I thinking of it when I suggested a pre-pay option to get around exploiting a faulty script. Yet using the phrase as an anology has put a picture of a coke-machine into everyone's head.

Personally, I don't feel that it's absolutely necessary to complete every single aspect of the experience and relieve the player of the burden of having to use his or her imagination. The keg already will need a messagebox to inform the player that the empty bottle was successfully filled (or not). Why can't that same messagebox simply state that the bartender comes over to collect the token in the process (for keg stands placed into bars and inns - keg stands placed in isolated locations would need a different script that ignores the presence of refill tokens). It simply assumes that the bartender (being a conscientious sort of person) keeps an eye on his kegs and comes to collect payment when some stranger shows up to fill a bottle at one. That's neither unrealistic nor far-fetched. It avoids quite a bit of unnecessary complication, but it does have the drawback of requiring the player to use his imagination. But is that really such a bad thing?

As to the idea of refill tokens having no resale value: I'm kind of torn on the idea. Anything that a person is willing to trade and someone else is willing to buy has a value. But there are some times when a token, once purchased, can't be returned. On the other hand, that tends to only apply in situations where the token is non-transferable, and trying to justify making the tokens non-transferable would sort of wreck the idea of having them available as loot from bandits. I presume that the basic idea behind refill tokens is that whoever supplies the wine to the various bars also controls the whole token-issuing thing. It's also what allows one bartender to accept tokens from some other bartender, since they're all redeemed by the wine merchant at a specific rate anyway.

Not so much, as seen there I expressed my concerns to this when I suggested the idea in the first place (though, I can't speak for others who presented concern with it). For me, it was more that adding the need to get the token in the first place makes it feel like a vending machine, where as simply paying money for your selection seems to be more in line with imagining having paid the barkeep.

Granted, as you expressed in your post, this can all be worked around to re-enhance the immersion in relation to it.

As previously stated, though, I think this is still probably the best route to go with it as it keeps things smooth and simple.

I can accept that it might come across this way to some people even though I don't agree that it should.

Situation 1: person comes into a bar, goes to a keg stand to refill a bottle, pays the barkeep his fee in gold, and leaves.
Situation 2: person comes into a bar, goes to a keg stand to refill a bottle, pays the barkeep his fee in a token, and leaves.

The only difference at all is that the bartender accepts a barter object in exchange for alcohol instead of a coin (which is, when it comes down to it, just a more universally accepted barter object). Morrowind is a barter economy, so the idea isn't really out of place.

As I mentioned in a previous post, movie theaters tend to sell tickets in advance (which is virtually identical in context to a refill token) which is accepted by someone when it's used in lieu of money - and all without any automation that would be inappropriate in a medieval setting. True, I suppose you MIGHT be able to pay the door-man cash instead of a ticket, but I've never really heard of anyone trying to enter a movie that way. Radio stations sometimes give away movie tickets as prizes. A store might sell a pass-book with a number of movie tickets so that you can get a discount for buying in quantity... something which you can't really do if you pay the doorman on the way in. And if something comes up and you find that you can't attend the movie you wanted to, or maybe you heard it was el-stinko and you don't even want to watch it, you can sell your ticket to someone that wants to go to the movies.

Indeed, you are 100% correct in both sentiments - it is just something that will come across that way to some people, but the more time spent thinking on it would draw one away from that frame of thinking.

Another thing to consider (and unrelated to the tokens as I think that is a pretty decent method and have no more to debate on it), what kinds of alcohols should be available from the kegs and how should that be done? Perhaps a number of different kegs all representing only a single alcohol? Or maybe being provided with a list of options upon keg selection? Perhaps a small mix of both (Beer Keg: Respective Options, Wine Keg: Respective Options, Liquor Keg: Respective Options)? Should there be the occasional empty keg about (if so, should they be activator or statics)? Should there be non-alcohol available in kegs ever?

The token idea seems like a rather strange way of handling things. You can't walk up to an unguarded keg and pour yourself a drink while nobody's around, all because you don't have a token to leave behind. After killing a couple of bandits, you're generally not going to put tokens into a collection jar to pour yourself a drink unless you're playing an extremely "legalistic" character. Even your "generally upstanding" adventurer is going to want to help himself to the "earned reward". Vending machines with coin slots aren't a credible option, except perhaps in Dwemer cities. If the kegs were limited to only a couple of pours per day, it would reduce the amount you could pilfer, but would still allow you to pour a freebie when noboy's watching. In cases where you wanted to legitimately pour yourself several bottles full, you'd have to ask the publican about "out of wine" to refill the cask, and woe be it unto anyone who did so with stolen wine on them.

Ignoring the stolen drink issue, perhaps the empty wine bottle itself could be the "token", rather than a coin, and charge for the bottle. Drinking could convert the wine bottle into a conventional water bottle while satisfying thirst, offering a bit of inebriation, and causing any other effects. You could refill your empty with water, but not wine. If you wanted a drink while the bartender was distracted, you'd have to steal a wine bottle off the shelf. After a while, you end up with 30-40 empty water bottles.........and no recycling pickup in your area. You STILL can't tap a conquered cask. It's a tough problem to avoid blatant cheats while keeping it believable with multiple play styles. Perhaps the only "workable" option would be to leave the pub casks either unscripted or "empty", so you'd have to pay the bartender for a drink; other casks would function as they do now.

As for tisanes, I haven't used them since about the first or second time I addd NoM. They felt a bit unbalanced and don't seem to fit in somehow, a sort of "alternate branch" of alchemy rather than a form of cooking. That doesn't mean that they can't be "adjusted", but as it stands they need a bit of work.

The food stations also seemed a bit out of place. I can understand a dedicated food store in a couple of the larger cities, but the local pubs and tradehouses should serve as foodstores in most communities, and the publican, clerk, or perhaps an extra waitress at most would handle the transactions, rather than a dedicated foodseller. I ran into issues with a couple of MCA 4.1 NPCs standing there stuck in the middle of food tables in several of the Imperial Legion forts, whereas the vendors already situated in most of those forts could easily have handled the food purchases.

I guess you must have missed that part. Obviously, keg stands in bandit lairs or smuggler's dens don't accept or require refill tokens, specifically because it isn't an automated process and there's nobody that would take your tokens (without killing you first, that is)

Or did I misunderstand your meaning there? It sounded as if you were saying that it makes no sense for a person to give a refill token at a keg stand after they've dispatched some bandits... a point on which we both agree, but which has already been resolved.

Actually, MWSE has a function to get the owner. Something to keep in mind for a MWSE version maybe?

Crime detection is really a nuisance in script, because the only way I know of to find out if the owner can see you is GetLOS (very expensive function and not totally reliable either). GetDetected will return true if any NPC or creature can see you, even if they wouldn't care if you're stealing something (and having your dog companion report your theft would be kinda silly IMO ). There's no way to check whether any NPC that would care if you're stealing can see you, short of using MWSE to find everyone in the cell, check their alarm, and so on (very expensive, and definitely overkill in this situation!).

I was thinking about an "Innkeeper" NPC, the generic NPC if you prefer... Can't you get around the 72 hour thing by having the NPC teleport to the Player once every other day or something?

There's nothing wrong with the notion that one assumes from the messagebox that the innkeeper they can see has collected the token, but dialogue may still be possible.

You might even have a relevant discussion with the real innkeeper who is there regarding the booze, the brewer, vintner, and so forth. If a global variable is set oncellchange to 0, and when you use a token to buy a drink the global is incremented by 1. then the innkeepers greeting or booze topic could be set according to the value of the global...

I've never found an adequate solution. I'm not saying there isn't one... I'm just saying that I've never found it. I've had situations arise where remote dialog was one viable solution, but never one in which it was actually necessary. Since solving the 72-hour issue has always been such a pain, and since I've never found myself in a position where I couldn't easily avoid it, I haven't spent much time trying to solve it. Perhaps someone else could give you a better answer. Sorry.

I should also point out that I wasn't saying that having dialog with the local bartender wouldn't work. I was only saying that it couldn't be done with generic scripts. It could very easily be done so long as the kegstands in each location had its own custom script.

In reference to a question about how various liquors should be dispensed: I'd strongly recommend against having the script offer more than one liquor/beer/wine per keg. If we're already having to go to some length to eliminate the player's impression of a vending machine, scripting the kegs to act like a soda fountain would be counter-productive.

Looking back at my post, I think I didn't adequately say what I meant.

Just to make myself clear, I didn't mean replacing all innkeepers with a generic innkeeper, but creating an invisible innkeeper either in a in a remote location bringing in the 72 hour issue, or perhaps a clone standing beside every set of kegs where booze is needed to be purchased. There are of course other options, but these are just examples.

In the global variable scripting scenario I mentioned earlier, you would actually be talking to the invisible innkeeper at the keg, and the real innkeeper's dialogue would be based on the global... If that makes sense...

Makes perfect sense to me... provided someone comes up with a solution to get around the 72-hour problem. I'm not sure that putting clones of the generic inkeeper within the cell of the bar will suffice, since it would imply having multiple copies of the inkeeper NPC, and using a fix arrow only works predictably when the referenced ID is unique. On the other hand, making many unique "generic" inkeepers to hide near the keg stands is a contradiction in terms. And since that would also require custom scripts (which would, themselves, eliminate the need for a generic inkeeper), that solution isn't really practical.

If someone has come up with a practical means of ensuring remote dialog with a single generic NPC, then this can be done with generic scripts. I cannot see any other method that could be accomplished with generic scripts. I don't think it's wise to focus on the problem to the exclusion of custom scripts though. Custom scripts are a quite workable solution. The only question is how much effort the scripter is willing to put into the mod. Because of the way in which scripts are optimized to only run in the cell in which the player is located, having a large number of scripts won't have any significant effect on the frame rate, provided that the mod doesn't do something ridiculous like having a couple hundred keg-stands in any one cell somewhere.

Yeah, custom scripts aren't really that much work... I use crimson editor to write my scripts, so I can just go to the first NPC object identifier, and , if there is more than one place where it needs changed, just have it change all for that string. I could change a script in a few seconds to accommodate this kind of multiple object ID.

Kegs
Ah. Yes, you are right Tocatta. That would require a custom script for every keg. As soon as you mentioned that the script would no longer be generic, I thought the same thing neildarkstar did. A generic NPC that teleports to the player (just make the NPC invisible and really tiny as a custom race) and then forcegreets.

Activate->Beer Keg
Place at PC the invisible barkeep
invisible barkeep -> forcegreet
when done, place invisible barkeep back in holding cell

Would something like that work? Able to use on all kegs needing payment this way. Though it wouldn't leave any space for theft I suppose. The 72-hour problem no longer applies since the invisi barkeep gets teleported to the player before the force greeting anyway.