I think it may be time to set up our first poll in regards to this to get some community views here, Gluby

I am really liking the rolling discussion on all this though - really want to see NoM taken to that next amazing level

I think maybe I was just feeling argumentative before... sorry If the major stuff is optional, that's fine with me, especially if world addtions for them are in a separate esp.

I haven't used NoM in ages, perhaps I will again after this update.

Om NoM NoM NoM!

Gluby,

- I just wanted to add that I'm not too sure myself what I meant by 'targeting' foods. I guess I'm driving at the idea that foods, especially new ones, be somewhat interactive rather than just becoming another new icon on the page. Ideas might include the repelling of vampires (higher flee ratio) if eating a lot of garlic, aphrodisiac effects (higher disposition opposite six) if eating a lot of shellfish, attracting bears if carrying a lot of meat, spoilage of food left lying around, that sort of thing. I realize, however, that might be a level of complexity beyond the scope of the project at this time.

- I'd be inclined to say that NOT everything should be lumped into one esp/esm. (I don't see a lot of takers for lavatory features :yuck: ) I think a 2 or 3-module split would be the way to go as per your proposal #2. Choices could be made via the options menu, indeed, but I think it best to keep the 'load load' down for those who are definitely opposed to a feature and would just as soon leave it out. If you're ambitious, the modularized set as well as an integrated whole would be the way to package it.

- agreed

- Wow, you're an ADOM fan? Yee haw! (I haven't played in a long time, though).

- Complete MW would have you put a variety of items in your inventory and use them to make select ingredients. For example, if you posses fire of some kind (a torch or candle), a jug, sugar, heather, and one of the scripted pots or bowls, you would equip the pot to bring up a menu of possible creations (saltrice porridge, heather jam, golden jelly, fire fern jam, etc.).

Having the requisite items and a high enough cooking skill yields the item and adds a new pot to inventory; in this example, heather jam. Heather possesses the alchemical properties Restore Personality, Feather, Drain Speed, and Drain Personality. For sugar, it's Fortify Fatigue, Restore Fatigue, Fortify Health, and Damage Health. Heather jam, meanwhile, is a more specialized ingredient with Cure Blight Disease, Blind, Paralyze, and Poison.

Complete Morrowind, by the way, is quite neat. Its main drawbacks and reason I won't use it in its current form are the numerous non-stackable scripted items and cumbersome menu system, issues that MC addresses well.

- food-as-potions effects: Gosh, this is just in experimental stages, so there's not much to show for it really (sorted by common name).

i.d., common name, effect

ALFDApplePie -Food, Apple Pie Resist Poison 2pts 20s
ALFDAppleAshunor -Food, Apple, Ashunor Tart Restore Health 1pt 3s
ALFDAppleSweet -Food, Apple, Sweet Red ditto
ALFDAshYamRoasted -Food, Ash Yam, Roasted Restore Strength 5pts 1s
ALFDBanana -Food, BananaRestore Personality 1pt 5s
ALFDMeatBeefGrilled -Food, Beef, Grilled Resist Normal Weapons 1pt 15s
ALFDBerryPie -Food, Berry Pie Resist Blight 2pts 20s
ALFDBittergreenStew -Food, Bittergreen StewRestore Speed 1pt 5s
ALFDBeefBittersweet -Food, Bittersweet Beef Fortify Strength 1pt 20s
ALFDBread -Food, Bread Restore Stamina 1pt 5s
ALFDCheeseCamlorn-Food, Camlorn Cheese Fortify Maximum Magicka 2pts 30s
ALFDAppleCandy -Food, Candy Apple Restore Hlth 1pt 5s, Fort Prsnality 1pt 5s
ALFDEggChickenBoiled-Food, Chicken Egg, Boiled Fortify Strength 1pt 5s
ALFDMeatChickenBreaded -Food, Chicken, Breaded Fortify Athletics 1pt 20s
ALFDMeatChickenGrilled -Food, Chicken, Grilled Fortify Athletics 1pt 15s
ALFDCornRoasted -Food, Corn, RoastedFortify Magicka 3pts 30s


There are more, but that should be enough to give you a 'taste'.

- http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=b335dd022688961a61d4646c62b381cbe04e75f6e8ebb871 4 U (Icons.rar)

We still have time to let discussion roll for a while on it -- I learned from my other poll that a person can only answer a poll once, no matter how many times the OP adds questions or possible answers, so I'd prefer to wait on using the poll (at least on this main thread) until we have 3 or 4 questions to ask. Or, we could poll in separate threads. Either way, though, I'm easy.


No worries!


You know how hungry your character has got to be by now?? :liplick:



Definitely some nice ideas worth considering when we've got the infrastructure down.

ADOM is incredible. Talk about wringing immersiveness, interactivity and detail out of an ASCII game... wow.


Sounds like there are definitely some ideas worth checking out for implementation. Of course, as you say, we want to avoid cumbersome interface elements and scripted ingredients (a big limitation, but an important one), but we can implement things other ways.


Those are along the lines of what I was thinking. I'd probably favor more mild restore attribute effects (say, 2 or 3 points instead of 5), but I like your approach overall.


Excellent! This is great stuff. Little details like this go a long way. Gives us some expansion room for uniqueness, and, since no one is likely to be storing scores of meat types in the house, but rather keeping them in containers, I see unique icons as far more important than unique meshes and textures (those are nice, too, of course, but not strictly necessary; I think unique icons are virtually necessary).

I may be mistaken, but I don't think permissions will be too much of a problem with these. Most of them come from usable sources, and you've added substantially to them. We can check for particular ones where applicable.

Thanks for doing them and sharing them, Huskobar. :foodndrink:

He hasn't eaten properly for at least 250 in game days, but he feels just fine. I guess that's another ability of the Nerevarine.

Same for Dwarf Fortress.

DF seems like it could be really really really fun if I could understand it better.

So if this is subtitled Necessities 2009! am I to expect a release before the new year?

I think that something like the need to bathe and lavatories should be a separate esp.

Most of the discussion on this seems to include them as a group. But from my understanding, lavatories is the only option that would actually add something to the game world sans the soap.

I feel that in the decision of 'to include into the main file or in a separate esp' should be based more on if its more of a scripted option, or a more object option.

For example, bathing (I've never used it and very likely wont in the future. So I don't know how its done.) is more of a scripted function I assume. I would guess that bathing is mainly done by going into a body of water for a short time? A simple disable or enable option and its for those that do not want it its almost like it doesn't exist.

But for lavatories, it would add numerous objects to the game world. The PC would interact with these new permanent objects. Even disabling the scripts still would likely leave the objects in game. So even though a pc might not have a use for them, they are still there. Things like these should probably be in a separate ESP as an add-on.

I suppose that if the config scripts were to disable the objects, it might not be too much of an issue. But it would still leave the additional space where the were.

For creating dishes, I would just like to add in my own opinion. I never liked the way cooking was done in NoM and MC.

My main issue with the way its done is that you are given a list of things to make when in the cooking menu. You have to know what ingredients are needed for each meal. If you try to make one you don't have the ingredients for it will tell you so. I always felt that the menu should simply check the ingredients I have and give me a list containing only things that I know how to make and that I have the ingredients to make. The only drawback being that it would require MWSE and that it may take awhile to display the menu depending on how many items are in the inventory. This is similar to a mod I use (I think its by Flig, and I don't know for sure which mod it is) that goes through a companion's inventory and returns a list of weapons, clothing, or armor in a menu.

My only other real issue with cooking was learning recipes. Before you could cook anything, you had to go out and buy a book on cooking. Apparently my character grew up without ever learning even the simplest meals. A character should start out with some basic cooking recipes. It doesn't take a book to learn how to make a fruit salad for example. If I'm wrong on this let me know. =x This is only through my own experience with MC and NoM when cooking.

I wouldn't expect it, no


Well, I am thinking the best way to handle it possibly would be for simply two different files, one that has only the original functions of NoM, and one that adds the other functions as well. This provides choice to the player, and still keeps the load order lower by using only one file either way for a base package.

The other preferable method would be to simply ignore lavatories in general since, as you pointed out, the vast majority of the bathing aspects could be handled from scripts (though there would still be some minimal game world additions with bathing as well).

I don't see too much issue with having some objects added to the game world that the player may not use so much, though (with careful consideration taken to reduce conflicts to a bare minimum), as if we make effects customizable (something Gluby and I tossed around some, nothing concrete with it), this may occur with some things in the base mod anyways.

Overall, to me, it is seeming like the lavatories are the most opposed potential aspect, so it may be best to just disconsider them entirely.


I am in agreement with this, I feel all players/characters should start off with some basic knowledge of cooking. Something for this will be done one way or the other, I am assuming, so that you will be able to make some food right from the get go provided you have the needed ingredients for the food (thus some in game books will still exist if for nothing else as an in game reminder as to what you need, since food in Tamriel is clearly different than our normal world).

Depending on where we fall with the MWSE/MGE things will probably dictate anything with how this can function. I would imagine an MWSE/MGE version being released as well, no matter what, as there are a number of benefits it could provide to this type of project (and I wouldn't mind learning some MWSE), but I am guessing there will be a version that requires neither to compensate for more players.

Lame, I guess I kind of expected that answer.

I had no real trouble heating some crabmeat over a cookfire in Seyda Neen right off the boat on day one, using MC's cooking skill system. Granted, the initial failure rate for frying some rat meat in a pan probably shouldn't be higher than 50%, and it would be nice to have a few more options with skill under 10 (like cutting up some veggies for a basic salad), just based on your character's previous life experiences, but all of the cooking bare essentials were available either from Arille's or the Argonian woodcutter. You can buy the fire kit and a pan from Arille, the wood and kindling from the Woodcutter, and even some raw meat from one or the other.

The NoM cookbook system included all of the basic equipment at Arille's in Seyda Neen, but you had to go to Balmora, Vivec, or some other place with a bookstore first in order to use any of it. Of course, there's a barmaid upstairs at the tradehouse who will sell prepared food if you don't care to cook, although it might be good to have a line in Arille's dialog about it for anyone who's new to the mod and can't figure out how to get a meal.


On another NoM-related topic - The animated grass rendered in MGE doesn't seem to conform to the revised landscape around the Food of the Gods restaurant, so much of the decorative lawnwork appears under a canopy of tufts of flying grass. Is that something I did wrong in setting up the program to render the landscape, or is that a conflict which needs to be addressed in one of the two mods?

Edit - missed a "n't" on the end of a word, big difference.

Another thought popped into mind: if ingredients from various mods are integrated, add-ons to accommodate automatic ingredient sorters might be in order. (Off the top of my head, there are some in Leyawiin, Solstheim Castle, and Antares' Little Mods, IIRC)

And look what else we have;

http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=942960

Sorry to disappoint.


That is (basically) the goal with food making, right there - assuring you can at least make some things (most logical basic items) right off the bat.

As for the grass, sounds like a conflict to me that will need to be addressed in a patch.


Hmmm, I hadn't thought about ingredient sorters, but that is a very good point and something that should be considered.

And I did notice the Lavatories thread here today (seems it is a slightly older thread too), so possibly even more reason to just drop those aspects.

I've been brainstorming and I've had an idea. I believe I have come up with a method for a simple "hook" for mod compatibility using MWSE.

We will make a holding cell that contains at least two NPCs, one called something like "Food" and one called "Drink." When the game is loaded, that cell will be scanned for containers owned by either one of those two NPCs. Everything that is in a container owned by "Food" will be added to the edible food list. The same for those owned by "Drink." So if someone is making a mod with new ingredients, all they need to do is add a container with their ingredients and set the ownership of it.

It will be necessary to have some sort of standard stat scale to determine the "quality" of each item. By that I mean how in NoM a comberry won't satisfy your hunger as well as a loaf of bread. I believe we will have to rely entirely either upon value and weight.

So that's my idea. Fairly simple to implement. However it will require entirely scrapping the existing eating and drinking scripts in favor of MWSE versions that will scan the "list" of food and drinks and see if the player has them.


Edit: I've also got a so far nearly-top-secret-super-ingredient sorter that I would be willing to donate to this project. It uses MWSE and thus will work for any and all ingredients from all mods. Currently it sorts alphabetically, though it can be changed to sort by weight or value as well. And I've had a long-standing project involving creating a potion sorter that will place all potions in alphabetical order on a shelf. It mostly works, but there's a few issues I still need to work out. Shall I dust these off?

Edit 2: I've been playing Fallout 3 lately. In the spirit of Timeslip's Improved Drunkeness, I firmly believe that there should be blurring, staggering, etc using MGE shaders. It would also be good I think to have a tunnel vision-like effect when starving/thirsting to death. Not to mention the afore-mentioned hunger/thirst/sleep meters, so long as they are rather inconspicuous and not in the way. My HUD is getting full.

That is such a great idea! :bowdown:

Not just for this mod either... Do you mind if people use this idea elsewhere?

Go right ahead. All of the ideas I share on forums can be considered public domain.

Wow, lots of stuff here, let me plug through and grab it item by item so I don't lose any proper thoughts here


My initial reaction to this is simply, we must do this. I think we would want to expand that room idea a little, and probably have a "Food", "Drink", and "Alcohol" NPC placed in that room (possibly more as well depending on what aspects all get added to the final product here). Further, I must say I have been 100% behind the idea of ensuring that a MWSE/MGE version of the mod is made in tandem (though as you have mentioned, each will have to be done through different approaches entirely).

I'm not too sure how we would want to directly address item quality offhand, but as you stated, probably some kind of mix between cost and weight would be workable once we establish some base level formulas for it.


That would be fantastic, we could certainly make some use of such resources for the MWSE side of things - and both of those sound right up NoM's alley.


I agree 100% on this

Thank you!

Not sure if Improved Drunkenness is a Fallout 3 mod but did you mean Timeslip's http://timeslip.chorrol.com/mgemods.html? If so, ignore me

Oh, I didn't mean anything about a Fallout 3 mod...I was referring to that. It's been a long time since I used it, I forgot the name.

Wow... lots to respond to. I'll have to respond in full shortly, as I've been trying to kick the RoF beta out the door, kicking, screaming and gripping the door frame as it is, these past two days. But, having skimmed it, that does sound extremely intriguing, Fliggerty. As far as we've been talking, and from what I've been thinking myself, I think much of our scripting is going out the door already, anyway, so the more relevant tradeoff is between the gains and "progress", on the one hand, and the making of it unusable for non-MWSE users. A thing you're probably constantly hearing about, I imagine.

Will respond to thread appropriately tomorrow.

I don't think you'll have too much of a problem finding people to help with scripting and resources. I hope that when scripting starts I'll be able to help out a little.

I think the discussion going on in this thread is fantastic. So many wonderful ideas, opinions, and view points.

I did just want to real quick mention that the "Lavatories Issues" was brought up in another http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=942960, I requested any further debate on NoM integration of this feature be directed here to avoid threadjacking.

Anyways, I suppose with such a feature I should explain better the approach that would be taken for making this feature come to life in NoM (per how I saw it). I hoped to make use of http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/27167-2-1252984871.jpg, specifically the chamber pots and outhouses. The chamber pots would be placed into some of the homes around Vvardenfell and the outhouses would be used in rural communities and such (so not too much in the lines of items, noticeably anyways).

Similar would be the approach for the bathing aspects I would imagine, with the addition of some tubs to a few homes, plus the addition of a global to let you bathe in water with some soap. I would imagine we could come up with some kind of scripting as well for reliving oneself as well.

So, I suppose that provides more details for potential debate on the topic as well, to keep the debate going here in this thread

EDIT: Some other ideas that I have had as well, in regards to this project - what is the consensus of possibly also integrating things like Graphic Herbalism by ManaUser, and maybe mixing that with the seed baring version of Sri's Alchemy mod (barring permissions of course)? This could possibly mix well with the idea of integration of things like Real Wildlife and such (adding nesting locations and variations to the normal wildlife). Creature leveled lists could also be adjusted to ensure a better chance of netting some return of base product (for better use of making foods - though we need to ensure it is balanced to not make alchemy too easy either). Could further possibly add auto gathering features to animals as well (since they tend to only net the food stuffs and any arrows you may have plugged into them), which could mimic Abot's Water Life auto gathering and the Graphic Herbalism?

Just some thoughts

I am now kicking myself in the face repeatedly for not thinking of this before. Best idea ever.

Well, if it's any indication, I'm currently running an interlocking mix of NoM, MC, Abot's Waterlife, and Seeds of Vvardenfell. I can gather ingredients and seeds, plant my own garden or crops, fish, cook my own food, make my own tools and household furnishings, and generally do almost anything one might consider "living" in Vvardenfell" except get a real job or make an NPC do a real job.

Where the mods don't "play together nicely", I've either added patches or made my own, including such nifty little trinkets as one to allow you to craft an Abot's Waterlife compatible "Fishing Rod" with MC, rather than useless "fishing poles". Now all I need is a rake, a shovel, and a couple of other basic items to make life complete......

- Edit - I'd love to see an expansion to the creature loot system where you get increasing quantites of food and hides at higher "hunting" skill levels. There's something wrong when you've got an economy based on getting 2 Septims worth of meat and/or a single small patch of hide (roughly 1/4 pound, if the system of weights is what it appears to be: 1 weight unit = roughly 4 oz.) from a huge Guar that takes years to raise.

Also, just on principle, can you add a "stagger" animation to that hidden NPC named "alcohol"?