[WIPz] NoM 3.0

Necessities 2009!


[SNIP]

This is thread #1 for the PNoM WIP. We are now on thread #2, which can be found http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1055095.

This is the greatest news ever! I've been very happy with NoM, but I would love to be able to choose to eat, and choose my meals rather than relying on the automatic eating scripts. This would just make this mod even more awesome.

Glad to see the WIP thread out

I will be looking forward to offering up my services to seeing this mod come to light, and further look forward to working with you on this.

Sounds good, especially the idea of on-demand eating combined with auto-eating. Couple of comments:

I'd like to still have those choices myself. Some characters (and some custom races) will prefer raw ingredients, for one thing. And I like to choose which meat first based on my character's preferences/background. But it's not a big deal really.


Please, please, please DO! No puny endurance penalty is anywhere near as bad as having to listen to those sounds! I'd like to have some kind of sound associated, but I just can't stand those ones.


I don't use MGE (my machine just can't run it), but I do use MWSE. Is there any possibility of making it compatible with the standalone MWSE? If it could work with both I'd be right behind that idea.

Well, I think number 1 we could probably leave in, but I think we had discussed changing number 2 to something similar to the fish question (Cheaper vs Heavier) to make a choice on value or weight. Perhaps a combination of both could be considered?


Hmm, it seems I underestimated Gluby's recommendation of this when it was brought up, I didn't think it would have been much a concern - I stand corrected


Would need to look into things further, but I think that may be possible - though I am personally thinking it may be best to simply make the MWSE and MGE functions side plugins (with a combined variant with those who have that ability available to them to use both). I have a hunch that enough people use NoM and don't use side programs necessarily.

Probably combining them would be more trouble than it's worth. It's not that big a deal, just means you have to drop the stuff you don't want to cook. :shrug:


If there aren't better sounds available, just making them quieter would help I think. Or I can go on replacing them with silent files. It is easily fixable (just replacing the sounds) but it would be nice to have better ones by default.


That would be good too - base version + MWSE patches or something.

For the love of Mephala, PLEASE do something about the sound. You are definitely not alone Melian. I kept food and water on me JUST so I didn't have to hear those horrible sounds!

Yeah, those sounds are pretty awful. You know it's bad when you can't tell if your character (1) was just hit in the ribs with a sledgehammer, or (2) is kinda hungry.

Any suggestions for sounds?


EDIT: Unintended emoticon removed.

I don't think there should be bathing/lavatory requirements. This is a medieval-y type game, and back in the day, people may have taken a bath once a year, if that. So requiring bathing would be asking a lot from your character. Also, there are plenty of bushes to relieve yourself in and plenty of leaves to wipe with. Might even soften some leaves up with some scrib jelly- I hear it makes them super soft!

http://historymedren.about.com/od/dailylifesociety/a/bod_weddings.htm. Like many of the things we think we know about the Middle Ages, the 'bathing once a year' idea was a myth dreamed up by the Victorians. And even if it were true of mediaeval Europe, it wouldn't necessarily apply to Morrowind - there were plenty of other mediaeval cultures (Eastern ones, for example) that took cleanliness far more seriously.

Huh.. I'm pretty sure I learned that in my U.S. History class back in high school or on the History Channel. I remember it was about the Victorians though.

Thanks for the correction!

Neat idea!

Didnt someone make a Telvanni well somewhere and used it for a NOM well in telvanni towns instead of the imperial ones?? Just a minor thing but one i feel will add to the quality of the mod over all

Indeed, I love NOM, but a bit more flexibility would be nice.

And Midge, last I checked, Telvanni had wellpods in NOM. I should know, I placed them all over Tamriel Rebuilt. Support for which would be another nice addition.

Great WIP !

One question/idea : why not separate nom.esp in 2 files ?
One file can contain resources (an esm).
One file for world modifications (an esp).

That to avoid copying resources in each mod that need to use nom stuff : others mods only have a new dependancy to nom.esm !
And for players who don't want the constraints (need to eat, sleep...), they just don't activate the esp file.

On a sidenote.. as you probably know the standard NoM v2.13 placeable firekit doesn't produce light since it's set up as an activator named "NOM_pitfire". In my personal NoM edition I was able to fix this issue. For compatibility's sake I've set up a new light item named "Campfire" (with the same "NOM_cookingfire_kit" script attached to it) and made some changes to the "Nom_place_item" script to place my light instead of the original NoM activator. It's the one string change to be honest, just replaced
PlaceItem "NOM_pitfire" Xpos Ypos Zpos1 0
with
PlaceItem "Campfire" Xpos Ypos Zpos1 0.

Then I have modified "NOM_cookingfire_kit" script to look like this:

# NOM_cookingfire_kit =========================================================
begin NOM_cookingfire_kit
;--Firepit. From cooking fire dropped on ground.
short done ;--Initialized
short currentDay ;--Unused
short currentHour ;--Unused
short endDay ;--Day when fire will end.
short endHour ;--Hour when fire will die
short dead ;--Unused
float myTimer ; just a timer

short close ; tell if the PC is come close to the oven
short button
short button_max
short state
short startTimer ;--Unused
short DoOnce

;--Menus?
if ( menuMode )
return

;--Fire is active?
elseif ( NOM_fire_hurt )
HurtStandingActor 10
endif

if ( GetDistance player < 250 )
set NOM_fireplace to 1
set close to 1
elseif ( close == 1 )
set NOM_fireplace to 0
set close to 0
endif

;--Base State
if ( state == 0 )
;--Initialize?
if ( done == 0 )
set state to 2
;--Activated?
elseif ( OnActivate == 1 )
if ( NOM_cook_base == 0 )
messagebox "You don't know how to roast vegetables!" "Ok"
else
DisablePlayerControls
set state to 10
endif
;--Time to die?
elseif ( daysPassed > endDay )
set state to 4
elseif ( daysPassed == endDay )
if ( gameHour > endHour )
set state to 4
endif
endif
return

;--Timer
elseif ( myTimer < 0 )
set myTimer to ( myTimer + GetSecondsPassed )
return

;--Initialize
elseif ( state == 2 )
if ( gameHour <= 12 )
set endDay to daysPassed
set endHour to gameHour + 12
else
set endDay to daysPassed + 1
set endHour to gameHour - 12
endif
if ( DoOnce == 0 )
set DoOnce to 1
disable
enable
endif
set done to 1
set state to 0

;--Die/Delete
elseif ( state == 4 )
disable
if ( close )
set NOM_fireplace to 0
set close to 0
endif
set myTimer to -0.5
set state to 6

elseif ( state == 6 )
setDelete 1

;--Menu
elseif ( state == 10 )
messagebox "What do you want to do?" "Roast ash yam" "Roast corn" "Roast corkbulb root" "- Put out fire !!! -" "- Nothing -"
set button to -1
set button_max to 4
set state to 15

;--Handle menu selection
elseif ( state == 15 )
set button to GetButtonPressed
if ( button == button_max )
EnablePlayerControls
set state to 0
else
set state to ( 10*button + 20 )
endif

;--Roasted Yam
elseif ( state == 20 )
if ( player->GetItemCount "ingred_ash_yam_01" < 1 )
messagebox "You need an ash yam to cook a roasted ash yam!"
else
player->RemoveItem "ingred_ash_yam_01" 1
player->AddItem "NOM_food_ash_yam" 1
PlaySound "fv_fire_grill"
set myTimer to -1
messagebox "You have roasted an ash yam..."
endif
set state to 10

;--Roasted corn
elseif ( state == 30 )
if ( player->GetItemCount "NOM_food_corn" < 1 )
messagebox "You need a corn ear to cook roasted corn!"
else
player->RemoveItem "NOM_food_corn" 1
player->AddItem "NOM_food_corn_roast" 1
PlaySound "fv_fire_grill"
set myTimer to -1
messagebox "You have roasted a corn ear..."
endif
set state to 10

;--Roast Corkbulb
elseif ( state == 40 )
if ( player->GetItemCount "ingred_corkbulb_root_01" < 1 )
messagebox "You need a corkbulb root to cook a roasted corkbulb root!"
else
player->RemoveItem "ingred_corkbulb_root_01" 1
player->AddItem "NOM_food_corkbulb_roast" 1
PlaySound "fv_fire_grill"
set myTimer to -1
messagebox "You have roasted a corkbulb root..."
endif
set state to 10

;-- Put out fire!!!
elseif ( state == 50 )
EnablePlayerControls
set state to 4

endif

end
=========================================================


The trick with disabling/enabling light was placed in just to get around the well known MW engine problem and make that script-placed light actually illuminate the surrounding statics/activators. Also I have added an option to put fire out, just for convenience..

http://savepic.org/24622.jpg

Well, let me take a stab at some of these comments/questions:

First of all, in regards to bathing and such, it should probably be better explained that if these functions do make it in, they will be optional effects set during the configuration menu. This would mean if you do not want to play with these, you simply opt out of those functions. We have been debating making all functions optinal by the player (including eating and drinking), as it would allow the player the most diversity to set up NoM the way they personally want it (I.E. Only runs sleep requirements, or just Sleep and Hunger, or Sleep and Thirst, or Hunger and Thirst, etc).

In regards to the wells, I am pretty well positive the Telvanni have their own in NoM already, though if we are able to find some more well resources I certainly wouldn't mind getting some more diversity to the world and placing some more unique wells.

Now, in regards to the ESP/M ideas, this is something I have been personally tossing around in my head (don't think I had mentioned it to Gluby yet). I think there are some great advantages of getting NoM set with an ESM. I think this is an area we will have to put some serious consideration into.

And, finally, in regards to Alexir's comments on the fire scripts, I think that is fantastic. It always bothered me not getting light from the camp fires, so this is certainly a vast improvement from the old system, and something I would be surprised if we did not include. The in game shot looks great.

Anyways, I hope that covers everything that was there for now

Just on the whole wells thing, Nicoliathan made the new meshes:

Re Wells: Agreed on the desirability of mixing in some variant wells if anyone has them (Telvanni or otherwise).

Re Campfires: That's excellent, Alexir. Much better.

On fires, I was thinking about incorporating Toccatta's and Drac's art and methodology, at least in part, from MC, sans the necessity of straw for kindling and logs (unless strong, decisive consensus opinion favors the incorporation of this, and whatever other, elements of MC as may be desired). If we do keep it as is, that fix will be incorporated and much appreciated.

Re Use of ESM: Actually, I forgot to throw this into the drawing board OP, but, yes, this is definitely going to be something desired -- or I should say I favor it wholly. (We did talk about it, Red Eye, but it was briefly and quickly agreed on. )

Re Bathing/Lavatories: I have been thinking about this a bit. One thing to consider would be the gameworld placements of bathing facilities and lavatories and such -- how optional could we make these via scripting? Would it bring in a lot of complexity? (E.g., any minor landscape modifications that would be done cannot be made script-disablable, can they?) Would those perhaps be something we would want to put in a separate ESP/ESM?

This is another thing, if included in the main plugins, about which I think we would want to have a strong consensus opinion, as it really expands the scope of NoM and increases gameworld placements (and thus risks of incompatibility).

I actually like that idea, personally, but I agree that should be open to public consensus or would otherwise need a config option in regards to it.


Ha! I do remember that now


You are correct, the game world placement of the needed objects would still occur (in the cases where they were needed, which I think if we play our cards right on this, can be significantly reduced overall - when one considers a person should be able to bath in nearly any water source provided they have some soap in inventory, so bath houses would not be a huge need). Further, some of the resources I looked over for this potential include would be fairly unobtrusive in a lot of cases (though it would still be a considerable chunk of extra placement, but I am willing to do this if their is desire for it so these things can all be housed in a single plugin to cut down load orders).

I think it would be best that if we do include these options that they do stay in the primary plugin, but the use of scripts behind it being controlled through the config menu (turning off bathing and lavatory scripts). Doing this would still mean having the needed objects placed in the world for a little extra ambiance, but those objects being as useful as most Misc. Items in the game world that are there for no other reason than to give the illusion of life. Further, I would also be willing to take the time to try and ensure item placement compatibility on my end, via comparing placements with other mods running with NoM. I would then use the statistically least likely to conflict method of placement, and provide patches where needed for other mods. Now, I am not going to lie, this will not cover every plugin ever made, but I can certainly test it against a large pool of notably popular ones.

Again with the mind reading.

I have been thinking along very similar lines for some time and in fact had begun tweaking NOM for use within my own project. It would be nice to see a new, integral version come to pass. So, some thoughts to serve as feedback (long-winded as always):

- incorporating ingredients and foodstuffs from other mods - a definite 'necessity'. The question is how far to go? Already between Srikandi's Alchemy, Wilderness Mod, Water Life, RW, MC, Silgrad Tower, MWA, and numerous other mods, the ingredient list is becoming overwhelming. As for prepared foods, you find interesting treatments in MCA as well as Princess Stomper's and Korana's work to the point having not only main dishes, but vinaigrettes for the main dishes. For drink, there's a lot of stuff on offer in Silgrad Tower and the Vivec Outdoor Mall (VOM). So... Should everything be pooled and a cap placed on further additions, or should a more open-ended system be the aim to accommodate future mods? It's RELATIVELY easy to add to the lists of eatables in the eating scripts, as has been done. Perhaps it's just a matter of monitoring what comes down the pike and revising those scripts from time to time. The Wrye replacer system sounds intriguing, too. But quite frankly, from bread to stewed scrib cabbage and everything in between, I think the variety is there already. To that end...

- Perhaps rather than concentrating on MORE stuff (i.e. a whole whack o' recipes), it should be a case of TARGETING stuff. Some allusions to race are already attached to some eatables. Perhaps attention could go to emphasizing race- specificity of foods and attending benefits; Imperial foodstuffs for Imperials, fish dishes for Khajiit, vegetables for Argonians, wild meat for Nords, casseroles for Bretons, whatever. Perhaps the more favoured the food, the better the hunger-reducing capacity with non-favoured foods having poor effects perhaps to the point of even being mildly poisonous in some cases.

Also, food gradients... as you've already presented, it makes sense that raw ingredients might be retained as eatables (again best, I think, if race compatibility is taken into account) but only as a last-ditch effort to stave off starvation. The system suggested by Kovacius sounds good . Working on up, simple foods such as fruits and plain bread might have mild benefits while complex dishes might stave off hunger longer and even go so far as to provide temporary fortifications. A tweak I am currently trying is the ascribing of alchemical effects to some eatables. The effect befits the food so that an orange, for example, infuses disease resistance for a short period of time. Care was taken to not outstrip the benefits you would get from a properly-prepared potion, and the effects are quite mild, such as a apple fortifying health 1 point for 15 seconds or so. But the overall principle is to allow for open- ended as well as automated eating, benefits from eating, and benefits that are mild so as not to be abused. This gives an incentive to improve one's cook craft so as to prepare more complex dishes which would, naturally, have greater benefits. It's fairly similar to alchemy, but then what is cooking if not kitchen chemistry? Owing to the complexities of some recipes, I feel one really has to enjoy benefits if one is to go to all the trouble of preparing the dish, otherwise there's no point. Books certainly should factor in, I think.

http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=1040665&view=findpost&p=15162899

If I was to do more work along this line, it would be to incorporate spell effects into the auto-eating scripts as appropriate for the food being ingested. Also, open-ended eating should have its limits after which 'you feel bloated' and cannot ingest any more for a period of time.

This all ties into the auto-feeding vs manual feeding debate. While I like the convenience of the auto-feeding system, MW is, after all, a role-playing game which demands that people make strategically smart decisions. Didn't pack enough salted crab meat to satisfy your Khajiit appetite? You'll have to eat twice as much guar meat to get the same effect. Didn't eat when you were 'feeling hunger pangs'? That sudden ambush means you're going into battle hungry. The variety of foods, the skills to prepare them, their effects, the conditions that bring about hunger, overeating... that can all be made to interplay without, I believe, being TOO intrusive. The same applies to sleep and drink, and, dare I say, even bathroom breaks and six.

- Further to on-demand feeding, I was toying around with and got a kick out of Primary Needs. Its system is kind of neat, furnishing a container into which food is stored and drawn from, keeping track of what remains. Changes would have to be made around encumbrance and other possible cheats, but the simulated eating is kind of o.k. provided it wasn't needed too often. Tiredness and hunger is interval based rather than occurring at a set time. (I did not care for the bottle-filling system, though, which filled too many at a time). I might be worth exploring for usable features.

- As for impending hunger or tiredness without effects, I find the NOM warnings to be quite effective. I modified my sleep one to say something like 'You feel weary and will soon need to sleep'. Heeding the warning, I would then finish up the day's business then head off to find a bed in short order.

-


It should not be requisite that a person has to have high skills in order to eat well. The books idea might work. And don't forget, like everything else, there can always be the option of visiting 'Food of the Gods' and get waited on hand and foot, or, if you're good at sneaking, helping yourself to someone else's pantry.

- Another general suggestion brings in the push-pull factor. Okay, you've gotten your cooking skill up to 90%, you've collected three crates full of ingredients, you've got all the money in the world to buy what you need, you don't need to hawk your culinary creations (or tisanes). Now what? Aha! You discover that the stronger your character becomes, the more you have to eat/drink to maintain well being! That can follow some sort of arithmetical curve I'd imagine - a game-flow consideration.

- Another take on reagents to be considered is such as what's found in Complete Morrowind. Here, 2 ingredients can sometimes be alchemically blended to produce another ingredient with entirely different properties. I don't know what that means except for its capacity to expand possibilities and add another layer of sophistication to cook craft.

-

..very interesting. ..a must-have for vampirism or Night Elf. It's hard to decide if such a thing should be choice based or automated, and if automated, how to execute it.

- Sorry, Trunksbomb, but I disagree with your reasoning. You can pretend to have a bath and you can pretend to 'go to the bushes'. Heaven knows, the stock game has us infer a lot of things. But that's the point of mods like NOM, to add immersiveness to the game experience. I have been using the Bath Mod for quite some time now and find it works quite well. Oh, I had to remove bad music scripts on some doors and relocate conflicting buildings, and I feel the effects provided by the soaps might be a little strong. But for realism and interactivity, it's pretty much a must- have for me.
You'll find lavatories in a lot of Princess Stomper's work and VOM. I have ALWAYS thought that there should be the need for 'bathroom breaks', which would progress along the lines of the other basic needs. A randomized timer could pop up a message once or twice a day advising of your need to 'go', followed by the requisite kicking in of hits to Agility, Willpower, whatever. Of course, the effects would get worse the longer you ignored the state to the point where, if you didn't act on it, you would effectively, ahem, 'mess your pants', your personality and NPC dispositions would drop dramatically, and you'd have a hard time interacting with anybody until you got a bath and got cleaned up. Of course, well-spaced facilities would have to be provided, as well as perhaps a global script that would allow you to use select bush areas if you had paper or whatnot.

- Toccatta - http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=1040665&view=findpost&p=15161689 - yep, makes sense.

- Kovacius

IIRC, it's meant to.

- the sounds... Sure, but they're of lower priority for me.

- paring down the configuration menu... Again, I consider it a lower priority since it rarely happens more than once.
It sounds like, in order to appeal to the widest range of player desires, the more configurability, the better. Global city, here we come!

One thing that really does need addressing is the auto-filling of bottles as an option in Water Life. Now that I've tweaked some things, I get error messages saying 'NOM should be loaded before/after blah blah...'
If auto-bottle-filling really is a desired feature, it should really be stripped from Water Life and migrated to NOM.
(Personally, I don't use the feature).

- icons/meshes - again, a blend of approaches is perhaps what's needed. On the one hand, it's nice to have a unique icon for every item for ease of identification. On the other hand, RW (for one) gives identical icons to items with similar effects, helping group them by their properties. Myself, my approach was to, say, duplicate hound meat for use with other similar-effect meats then give the duplicates hues appropriate to their animal of origin; greenish for alit, whitish for kagouti, pinkish for guar. I'm not sure what arrangement I like best, but I do think the aim should be more toward uniqueness.

- Perhaps see if you can get permission from Duncan to include Falling Down's falling down feature in the script dealing with fatigue.

There, I've weighed in, now I'll weigh out. It looks like you've got a really solid plan from which to build. Think of this not so much as a list of new features to add, but some random ideas of how related features from disparate mods might be made more harmonious. This is an exciting thing you've got going. Good luck!

Hm, I think I disagree with both of you, more or less...

I don't want to be baby-sat by a mod. I want realism (within reason), but when it comes to bathing and sleeping, I'll do it when I please and I'll do it my way - not according to some arbitrary rules specified by a modder. I *really* think that sort of thing should be optional. Making major things like that optional should be quite easy to do and I see no reason not to in any case - if you want them active in your game, just don't disable them.

Indeed. I think I have a few Telvanni wellpods in my mod as well.

Edit: Also, if the bathing requirements go into effect, I for one would love to see Korana's soaps included, with her permission of course.

This is quite well what I had in mind and mentioned to Gluby in numerous discussions. I think the best approach is to make most of the major aspects of this mod adjustable in the configuration menu. I further feel this should be done on an individual basis: Do you want sleep scripts active? Do you want hunger scripts active? Do you want thirst scripts active? (and so on).

A system like this would open the mod up to all types of players. It would then provide the aesthetic enhancement of having placement of bathing facilities, food stores, wells, etc - but they are only effected by aspects that they personally want in there game.

Very difficult to keep a reply to this much content brief and sparsely-quoted to avoid bloating without making it necessary for the reader to refer up to the last posts to see what I'm referring to, so forgive the length.

That sounds very reasonable, though I am still a little chary of the trade-off between {a} including all that additional placement and potential complexity where a good number of users may find it unwelcome, even with conscientious placement, and {b} taking up one more plugin slot. I could agree to fusing two functions where they are minor and easily separable, but the bathing and lavatory functions really are an injection of a whole lot of new gameworld locational content that are certainly worthy of their own slot to maintain modularity. Furthermore, the plugin limit is not near the limitation it was before the MPP (after all, so many patches are now obsolete), and many mods can be safely merged via TESAME or the CS for power-modders who still break that envelope. But here, I still find separate ESPs much more preferable to obligatorily including gameworld content for NoM users who will find it unwelcome. We could, though, include both a merged version and separate ESPs to satisfy the best of all worlds.

Interesting, Huskobar... I had not known about Silgrad Tower or the vinaigrettes (and the latter really got an unexpected laugh out of me when I read it the first time ), and had forgotten about VOM. We'll need to check those out, along with PS and Korana's work.

But, yes, that is the question. Some selectivity will be definitely needed -- injudiciously including everything would be a disaster, especially when you consider notable stylistic departures (of which NoM already contains a number -- I think it might be worthwhile to invite art replacements for a number of things, if that is not found objectionable) and outright quality deficiencies (such as non-transparent icon backgrounds and things like that, as well as more obvious types of quality deficiencies). Personally, I love variety, but, yeah, too much is too much. It's something to watch for, and it'll be something we can fine-tune.

As for prepared dishes making for a bloated ingredient list, we've got that solved, I think. At least as far as prepared dishes bloating it. Incorporating the MC method (food as potions) would not only pretty much obviate much of the scripting complexity, but it would provide the much-sought-after goal of on-demand eating.

For other ingredients, I don't foresee too much difficulty, but, again, we'll take that as we go and leave the final result up to scrutiny and tweaking.

One alternative concern that I have, personally, is making sure that desirable potion effects are not too easy to come by through all these ingredients (especially when some mod authors make for some rather impressively useful, yet easily-come-by, ingredients). Different people have different standards, but I am shooting for a standard on par with the base game, with a bit of wiggle room where it makes it more fun without breaking lore or overall balance. As it stands, with some of the mods I have used, many effects are cheapened to the point of destroying the special nature of special ingredients. To make up an example off the top of my head, if a piece of lettuce or some flour could be used for highly-useful potions, who would bother gathering rare plants? I want to avoid that, and would personally be very much in favor of making many, if not most, food ingredients alchemically relatively unviable.


Excellent ideas. The mild bonuses gained from eating should, again, be nicely realizable by Toccatta's and Drac's food-as-potions method. For raw fruit ingredients, this wouldn't apply, but it would when they are prepared in the form of, say, a fruit salad, to use a current NoM example. So we're on that track already! But I would definitely like to see what you came up with for the effects to be assigned to this or that dish.

This is doable where appropriate for raw ingredients, though I'm on the fence on it, particularly if we move away from auto-eating.

I definitely plan on writing negative hunger states in (satiated, bloated, and so forth), which would also nicely solve the problem of choosing between "wasting" food, on the one hand, and having to sit there in mild states of hunger until your hunger level warrants it. Personally, my vision is something along the lines of making the hunger/eating experience interactive, with the obligatory elements coming in only through neglect, as in the aforementioned roguelike games (ADOM) and Ultima UW.

I agree with that, though, of course, other NoM afficionados may not have our same threshold of intrusiveness, and so am open to other opinion.

I haven't played with Primary Needs, but I have been planning to check it for ideas. I think we are definitely moving toward interval-based, point-system tiredness and hunger (again, responding indirectly to Melian's comment on this), as the scheduled system is rigid and, at least as far as I am concerned, less immersive. For the impending hunger/tiredness, non-penalty-inducing initial states of hunger, thirst and tiredness will accomplish the same, so, basically the early warning will be based on actual body state rather than set time schedules.

[1] I like this idea.
[2] Something to consider. Could you give a couple of examples of what they do? Kind of reminds me of Tealpanda's Essence Potions.
[3] Well, now it's time for me to concede a point to you, Red Eye: I had imagined this aspect not so much utilized. It's not something I am so much into, but I wholly support developing it within the project (again, though, I am still of fairly solid opinion that it should be a separate ESP).

[1] Although, to be sure, the main concern is not so much the intrusiveness of a config menu as is the additional scripting superstructure and complexity. But, yes, if there is substantial support for a function, it should probably be kept in where it is not an unduly disadvantageous trade-off.
[2] Hmm... I hadn't thought of that. Good point.

Part of this is alleviated by the fact that TR provides nice, unique-but-thematically-consistent meat art that makes our life easier. Myself, I favor uniqueness as well. Definitely no icon or art duplication where we can avoid it, and we'll be gratefully accepting submissions of art for things where needed.

By the way, your comment here could be read one way or another -- are you saying you have made icons or art for different meats with different hues? Hand 'em over! (If you want to, of course.)

[1] That's a possibility. I'd want a strong favorable consensus opinion on a change like that, as it is a fairly significant change the general appeal of which I am not certain.
[2] Whew! That took a long time. But the thoughtful response and ideas are much appreciated! :foodndrink:



Melian, I'm not quite sure which part you mean when you say you disagree. We're all in agreement, I think, on modularity and each aspect being disablable. The crux of our discussion has been the choice between:

1) Red Eye's proposal: One ESP that incorporates the bathing and lavatory functions and gameworld additions (baths, outhouses and so forth) into NoM fully, but allows each individual set of scripts (eating, drinking, sleeping, bathing, elimination) to be enabled or disabled individually.

... or ...

(2) My proposal: A main NoM ESP with the standard functions currently implemented, and a second, extension ESP that adds the scripts and attendant gameworld additions for the bathing and lavatory functions, both of which ESPs allow individual disabling in the same way.

(In both cases, to be clear, we'd have a main data ESM for base NoM data.)

I haven't been particularly inclined toward those things myself thus far, and, though I'm not opposed to them or trying them out, but I think it's definitely an area more subject to varying opinions, and to being a possible deal-breaker for players, and thus I am in favor of implementing them in another ESP.

Those are the two positions we've been deciding between. Was there something that's not being addressed?