Awhile back on this forum, someone I think Hircine wondered why Talos did not fight Dagon in the temple of one, rather than Akatosh.
Which got me to thinking that all through the Kotn the divines were considered the 8 that became 9, implying that at some point some faction forced the temples to add Talos to their pantheon.
Which itself seemed to be implied to me that it was when the empire was cementing its power and needed a god head to declare why the royal blood was special.
As in kings of past claiming to be demi gods or just plainly put on earth to rule by divine powers.

With Oblivion, and now the infernal city it seems Talos' blood line if it ever truely existed is broken, the Amulet of kings just needs a strong central leader with the power to declare him / herself emperor, to keep veil intact and Oblivion out.
So is Talos dead, or even was he ever a god?

I think he lives. In "Morrowind" you meet Wulf, who's most likely an avatar of Talos. (In fact you can meet three avatars in that game: ones of Talos, Mara, and Zenithar.)

It could be the Nine are watching such events as the Oblivion Crisis but are hanging back, for whatever reason. Maybe they can't interfere directly with mortals, and can only interact through avatars.

He's Lorkhan, and Lorkhan is dead, so I suppose it's fair to say that Talos is dead.

Wulf did say things are going to be a changin'. Also, Talos ain't dead, and he is still a god. Currently, he's the substitute Shezarr

Talos was the pivotal center of the Empire, and with White-gold out of commission, he is dead.

Edit: This is going to ramble a bit due to many questions put as statements, see if you can help me out if you post.

So as Talos as a divine is a mix of Shezzar, and mortal, and Sharzzar also are a combination of spirit, dead god, and mortal.
That leaves in my mind if he ever was a god or just a reminder of the prime role of man on Nirn, and of change.
That now change has occured the divine Talos with his bloodline dead is to be replaced by shor, in an act of removal of the 8 elven inspired divines.

As with the Talos bloodline dead, the elven lands fractured, Nord the closest to true Nedic blood taking prominance, Shor has no need to stay in the background of imperial faith.
With the events in Kotn putting the actions of a shezzar as a focus, the MQ having little to do with Talos.
Rather it having Akatosh stopping the invasion of a somewhat Lorkhan tainted plot to ruin the Amulet of kings and destroy all trace of Talos' (who is Shor who is Lorkhan) bloodline.

So is it it not possible that all actions in Oblivion and Kotn were just to bring about the end of Talos, to reset as it were the attempt of Shor to take power only to retry the extinction of elven bloodlines.
Due to the fact that since Alessia and the death of pelinal, followed by Talos the Men and Mer of Nirn have intregrated rather than annihilated each other.
To make way for a new attempt of mans dominance, and the possible resurgence of Lorkhan?

The actual excuse for Talos not helping with the fight against Dagon is because Akatosh was pivotal in the creation of the Amulet of Kings. Which I don't get. So what? The eight, regardless of what we commonly see, do not favour the Imperials (imo). Perhaps they favour men, but that's a whole other discussion. Talos, on the other hand, was the first proper emporer, and cares greatly about the empire. It would completely make sense for him to want to save them, more than the others. If anything, he would have helped Akatosh. He would never have just sat aside and watched.

What I really don't get, is why did Akatosh have the power to defeat Dagon? I mean, sure, Dagon isn't the most powerful thing ever in Oblivion, since he's an avatar outside his own realm, but Akatosh, like the other seven divines, was crippled during the creation of mundus. He wouldn't have had the power to destroy Dagon.

And who said anything about Lorkhan being dead? He appears constantly. Just because his heart was "destroyed", doesn't mean he's died. He's a god. My theory is, what happened to Lorkhan was basically the same as being brain dead. He is still an all powerful entity, but has no conciousness to do anything. His physical manesfestation is not the same as him. If you were to kill Dagon's avatar, would he die? It's the same princible.

Oh, and it was me, Mado. ^_^

The reason that the Prophet said that in KOTN was that Talos had to ascend to become a Divine, and that happened after the Alessian Rebellion and his rule over the Empire. I don't believe that Talos is dead as it is he who granted the player the Also the Divines could not fight against the Oblivion Crisis because of the fact that they gave up part of themselves to create Mundus, and they are still weaker than the Daedric Princes. The only reason Akatosh could was because of Martin's breaking of the Amulet of Kings, which unleashed it's power.

Knights of the Nine happened during the crisis. Umaril was a product of Mankar's insurgency against White-Gold.

Lorkhan is not Talos.

Talos shows his face twice in-game. The first is Wulf, the second is the Prophet.

Of course, even the dead Lorkhan shows his face(not literally speaking). Shezarrines are awesome.

So this is an easier one now ( for me to write anyway ).
If you were a spectator during the crisis and the Septim line perished ( the supposed living descendants of Talos ).
And in the temple of one Akatosh sundered Dagon going with it the Amulet of kings the other tie to the even more ancient bloodline mixed possibly with both Shezzar and Akatosh.
The placement of the Avatar of Akatosh right in the centre of the temple of the one.
At roughly the same time an ancient enemy returns to seek vengance on the eight, only to be destroyed by the CoC acting on the behalf of the older form of worship..
Would you not feel that something had shifted, and that Talos had waxed and now was waning in descent?

Oh and thanks for the replies everyone, and Hircine thanks for making my head spin with this .

"Dead" is a very subjective term in TES, especially when it comes to the Divines...he still has a large cult, probably larger than ever before since people associate Akatosh with him. Worship is one of the criteria through which a Divine's essence is sustained in this canon.

It was Akatosh who made what the amulet of kings what it was for Alessia, it's only natural that his avatar would appear once it was destroyed.

The act of Martin becoming the Avatar of Akatosh is simply a form of apotheosis. Every true apotheosis occurs through a world-shaking event.


The fact that a Shezzarine returns has nothing really to do with Talos directly. It's just that Shezzar is dealing with his old enemy in the same way he dealt with him the first time. Pelinal was the original Shezzarine after Shezzar first left the Nedic people, and they were conquered by the Ayleids. Pelinal-as-Shor helps Alessia and Morihaus defeat the Ayleids and create the first Empire, dies, and returns when a vestige of the enemy of the Nedic people returns. Dagon wasn't Shezzar's problem but Umaril was, therefore he returns to deal with it, and the CoC walks the path of Pelinal, so by association, he walks the path of Shezzar and becomes the Shezzarine.

It's the same story in every nation, as each nation has its own guardian. The Khajiiti have Baan Dar. The Redguard have The HoonDing. The Dunmer have the Nerevar. The Altmer have (had) Trinimac. The Nords have Shor. The Cyrodiils have Shezzar.

I'm not sure about Bosmer, Bretons, or Argonians.

I have a few different ideas as to why. The foremost is that he's worshiped as a being of incredible power, and he was made powerful through myth. Or perhaps it was from the power of the Amulet.

Where have you noticed the large cult, since Oblivion?

The Septim Empire would not have been eradicated, had Talos survived Martin.

First of all thanks.

My thought with Kotn and the MQ lore is that by walking the path of Shezzarine you are in effect fighting the old fights of Shor and before him Lorkhan proper.
At the same time impeding his designs of old by bringing about Akatosh's Avatar, the only upside to that which resulted in Martins ( a Shezzarine descendant ) Apotheosis into Akatosh is the destruction of the amulet of kings.
Which shut the barriers, I have no clue if this is permenant due to a higher mingling of Akatosh and Martin Septim, or temporary in which case it would fit into Kotn.

I decided mentlly a while ago that it was an avatar of Aka , not shor, that showed u because there had been an odd number of cycles, and so the Shor who was originally Shor is now Aka.

The Aedra do resemble how man sees them, but it's an appearance thing, only. They do this out of thier own will. They are basically the exact same as the Daedra, but with a huge power loss.

And I doubt the souls of a few emporers could defeat Dagon (The Amulet of Kings was basically a huge soul gem, I believe).

It's the fact that the Aedra/Divines show themselves so little that we get an image of them as being weaker. Also, it doesn't help that Chimer/Dunmer did/do so much to make the Daedra look stronger. The true power on Nirn though is/was the et'ada. They were the spirits that actually did things, changed history, and fulfilled prophecies.

As for the Amulet of Kings, it just be a large soul gem, but think about the Mantella. It was just a soul gem too, holding only one soul, and look what it accomplished. Furthermore, the AoK was Chim et-Adabal, the crux White-Gold.

I guess either myth can empower the Aedra, or Akatosh is stronger than you give him credit for.

What do you mean by, "myth."

By that I mean what his many worshippers believe him to be; a powerful being in the form of a dragon embodying invincibility.

Although I must say it would have been hilarious to see a two-headed robed guy beat the crap out of Mehrunes Dagon.

Sometimes I wish TES was simple enough that Akatosh would just be a two-headed robed guy.