Post Great War strategy and the length of generations of mer

Post » Thu May 31, 2012 6:29 am

In The Real Barenziah, a (possibly unreliable, but then what isn't) healer states that children are a rarity among mer. I assume the comparison is being made between man and mer when considering how common children are. From this it follows that it would take much less time for one generations of humans to reach advlthood than it would take even one generation of mer.
If this is true, humans should be in much better shape for a war than mer are after one or two generations, ie. 30-60 years.
My questions are as follows:
  • Is The Real Barenziah considered a reliable source for this matter? The healer, specifically?
  • Are there any other sources that reinforce what was stated in The Real Barenziah?
  • Do the majority of human children reach advlthood? What of the mer?
  • Do average human families have many more children than average mer families?
  • Are the games accurate depictions of the man to mer ratio? They don't seem to be, but is there an explanation for it?
  • If the previous are weighted heavily in favor of humans, why are the Thalmor playing what seems to be a waiting game? Obviously instigating the Civil War in Skyrim is a big bonus for them, but is it enough? Why is the Empire (and Ulfric) falling for their ploy? There seems to be a much better solution to fighting the Dominion than fighting themselves.
  • When would the ideal time for the Dominion to strike back be? I get the impression that it would be near the end of the Civil War, or at a much much later date (several generations).
  • If the Empire expects the Dominion to strike back, as is heavily implied, why did they not strike back as soon as Ulfric tried to start the Civil War? It seems that would be the ideal time for the Empire to strike back.
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Calum Campbell
 
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Post » Wed May 30, 2012 9:57 pm

Standard Protoss-Zerg conflict. If the humans keep up the pressure, the elves wont be able to keep their numbers high enough and the elven economy will collapse.
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Isaac Saetern
 
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Post » Wed May 30, 2012 7:54 pm

Alright then, why hasn't the elven economy collapsed yet? Humans have had thousands of years. What am I missing?
EDIT:
I guess I should clarify. Humans have had >7000 years, and they don't seem to even be putting a dent in the resources on Nirn. How can they expect to starve the elves of resources in less than the time it takes the Dominion to launch a new attack?
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le GraiN
 
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Post » Thu May 31, 2012 5:32 am

In The Real Barenziah, a (possibly unreliable, but then what isn't) healer states that children are a rarity among mer. I assume the comparison is being made between man and mer when considering how common children are. From this it follows that it would take much less time for one generations of humans to reach advlthood than it would take even one generation of mer.
If this is true, humans should be in much better shape for a war than mer are after one or two generations, ie. 30-60 years.
My questions are as follows:
  • Is The Real Barenziah considered a reliable source for this matter? The healer, specifically?
  • Are there any other sources that reinforce what was stated in The Real Barenziah?
  • Do the majority of human children reach advlthood? What of the mer?
  • Do average human families have many more children than average mer families?
  • Are the games accurate depictions of the man to mer ratio? They don't seem to be, but is there an explanation for it?
  • If the previous are weighted heavily in favor of humans, why are the Thalmor playing what seems to be a waiting game? Obviously instigating the Civil War in Skyrim is a big bonus for them, but is it enough? Why is the Empire (and Ulfric) falling for their ploy? There seems to be a much better solution to fighting the Dominion than fighting themselves.
  • When would the ideal time for the Dominion to strike back be? I get the impression that it would be near the end of the Civil War, or at a much much later date (several generations).
  • If the Empire expects the Dominion to strike back, as is heavily implied, why did they not strike back as soon as Ulfric tried to start the Civil War? It seems that would be the ideal time for the Empire to strike back.

The Skyrim Civil War is about a generation or so after the Great War, which, if the Elves rarely reproduce (more on this later), would be their only real move in keeping men weak, outside of some fantastic mythic display of power (Also, more on this later). Remember, the Thalmor don't want any clear winners in the Civil War.

There is a source floating about -- I think it's the 3rd PGE but I'm too lazy to check right now -- that states that the Altmer will forego their whole eugenics shtick and reproduce en masse as needed. I figure that post Great-War would be an excellent time to reproduce profusely.

If I had to say why the Thalmor are playing the waiting game is because they are trying to weaken the Empire through mythic means rather than military means. Pretty much, they can run around the Empire and enforce the "No Talos" rule.

Why the Empire hasn't struck back yet might relate to the whole Skyrim Dark Brotherhood quest line (Spoilers). Many speculate that the Emperor Titus II deliberately sabotaged his career and life just so his Empire (chiefly, the politicians) could look forward to a fresh face running the show. I expect that an early move from the new emperor will be to declare war on the Dominion.
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George PUluse
 
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Post » Thu May 31, 2012 5:43 am

A few points:



  • The games should not accurately depict population; if we had a game in Black Marsh most people would be argonian, etc.

  • I don't think it is ever implied the Empire know the Thalmor are instigating the war.

  • The ideal time for the Thalmor to strike back depends on their end goal; if it is to retake Cyrodiil, I would say as soon as the Stormcloaks won Skyrim.

  • Imo the Empire would have a hard time striking back that soon, assuming the Dominion used basic strategy; have a portion of your total forces at home. You don't invade with everything you have, incase you lose, which they did.


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Ian White
 
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Post » Thu May 31, 2012 2:41 am

  • I don't think it is ever implied the Empire know the Thalmor are instigating the war.


  • When you defeat Tullius for the Stormcloaks, he pretty much calls Ulfric an idiot and states that the Empire isn't the "real enemy." At the very least, the Empire knows that the Thalmor benefit from the Civil War.
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    Amie Mccubbing
     
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    Post » Thu May 31, 2012 7:55 am

    In The Real Barenziah, a (possibly unreliable, but then what isn't) healer states that children are a rarity among mer. I assume the comparison is being made between man and mer when considering how common children are. From this it follows that it would take much less time for one generations of humans to reach advlthood than it would take even one generation of mer.
    If this is true, humans should be in much better shape for a war than mer are after one or two generations, ie. 30-60 years.
    My questions are as follows:
    • Is The Real Barenziah considered a reliable source for this matter? The healer, specifically?
    I don't see why not.
    • Are there any other sources that reinforce what was stated in The Real Barenziah?
    The games/other lore in general do state that mer are longer lived than men (Bran-Shei in Skyrim is at least 195 years old)
    • Do the majority of human children reach advlthood? What of the mer?
    The Real Barenziah says that Barenziah is of child-birthing age at around 17. I'd think this means all races reach advlthood at the same time, but age differently (in real
    • Do average human families have many more children than average mer families?
    The Real Barenziah says so, but I don't remember any other sources. The Great War might have something on this matter.
    • Are the games accurate depictions of the man to mer ratio? They don't seem to be, but is there an explanation for it?
    Skyrim only has children of men, but very few elves (or non-nords in general) don't live there.
    • If the previous are weighted heavily in favor of humans, why are the Thalmor playing what seems to be a waiting game? Obviously instigating the Civil War in Skyrim is a big bonus for them, but is it enough? Why is the Empire (and Ulfric) falling for their ploy? There seems to be a much better solution to fighting the Dominion than fighting themselves.
    High elves (through racial purity, elven lifespan, dracochrysalis, anuic viewpoint, etc.) are the longest lived race by far. It's not absurd for an altmer to live over a millennium (it's rare, but it does happen). They have that kind of time to scheme.
    • When would the ideal time for the Dominion to strike back be? I get the impression that it would be near the end of the Civil War, or at a much much later date (several generations).
    Probably after all the nations of the empire are divided. That is to say when all that remains of the Septim Empire is Cyrodiil itself. The point of the Civil War is to weaken both sides so that the Thalmor can sweep both nations in a weakened state.
    • If the Empire expects the Dominion to strike back, as is heavily implied, why did they not strike back as soon as Ulfric tried to start the Civil War? It seems that would be the ideal time for the Empire to strike back.
    Cyrodiil (and Tamriel in general) is still weak from the Great War. Not to mention that the Thalmor are not directly involved (in combat) in the Civil War; attacking them while Ulfric rebels wouldn't solve anything. Plus Titus Mede II doesn't want to (or can't) fight two wars at one time

    This really has little actual canon basis, but in my own opinion, the man/mer reproduction/lifespan thing is grossly over-exaggerated. While mer do live longer than men, most only live for about a century and a half in practice (barring the altmer who value purity of race and culture). And while mer reproduce less than men, it's not by much.

    This is more fanwank than anything else, but my two cents.
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    meghan lock
     
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    Post » Thu May 31, 2012 5:48 am

    When you defeat Tullius for the Stormcloaks, he pretty much calls Ulfric an idiot and states that the Empire isn't the "real enemy." At the very least, the Empire knows that the Thalmor benefit from the Civil War.

    True, but I think they would have to react more severely if they knew the Thalmor were actively causing the war as opposed to just happening to benefit from it.
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    Marine x
     
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    Post » Wed May 30, 2012 11:14 pm

    Empire's biding her time, waiting for the TalOS patch to download.
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    Emzy Baby!
     
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    Post » Wed May 30, 2012 11:43 pm

    A later source (dialog in MW) states that merish fertility is dependent upon population pressures. When the land is nearly over-crowded, they become nearly barren. When there is room to spare, they become fertile. Mer seem to reach advlthood as early as men.

    After a war (where, presumably, a lot of mer died), population pressure would lower, and the Altmeri / Bosmeri fertility would improve.

    The Thalmor are waiting (presumably) for the ban of Talos-Worship to have some more effect. They also probably lack the capacity to mount another full-on invasion of the Mede Empire (just as the Empire lacks the capacity to launch a full-on invasion of the Aldmeri Dominion), and they seem to be doing more than just biding their time. I'm sure they're keeping themselves busy.

    The ideal time to strike depends on what you mean by "strike." If you mean, "what would be the ideal time to try and lay some pain on the men," then yes, that'd be just about now. If the Empire won the civil war, use Ulfric's Rebellion as an excuse to round up some Talos-worshippers, and otherwise mess with the Empire. If the Empire lost, support the Empire in a bloody re-conquest of Skyrim, keeping Altmeri losses to a minimum. However, the Altmer don't dare to win yet, because if they do, if they put baby humanity in a corner, Talos / Lorkhan is going to pop up, incarnate, and wreck [censored], like he did in the late 2nd Era, and the end of the Merethic Era. The Altmer need to win the mythological war before they can win the physical one.
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    Elina
     
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    Post » Thu May 31, 2012 1:08 am

    This really has little actual canon basis, but in my own opinion, the man/mer reproduction/lifespan thing is grossly over-exaggerated. While mer do live longer than men, most only live for about a century and a half in practice (barring the altmer who value purity of race and culture). And while mer reproduce less than men, it's not by much.

    This is more fanwank than anything else, but my two cents.

    Wait, so how do you account for Brand-Shei? Telvanni magic? Some secret life-prolonging serum the Argonians administered to him? He looks around middle/early late age, and he lives in Riftin as a commoner, so the long-lived elves thing has an in-game basis, seeing as Brand-Shei is at least 195 by the time you meet him in Skyrim and he seems fine.
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    Nomee
     
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    Post » Wed May 30, 2012 8:15 pm

    Alright then, why hasn't the elven economy collapsed yet? Humans have had thousands of years. What am I missing?
    EDIT:
    I guess I should clarify. Humans have had >7000 years, and they don't seem to even be putting a dent in the resources on Nirn. How can they expect to starve the elves of resources in less than the time it takes the Dominion to launch a new attack?

    I'm talking about open warfare actually. Elves can't replenish their numbers as fast as humans. The humans need to start fighting again.
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    Vickey Martinez
     
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    Post » Thu May 31, 2012 5:27 am

    I'm talking about open warfare actually. Elves can't replenish their numbers as fast as humans. The humans need to start fighting again.

    You realize, of course, that this means Ulfric, and the Nordic warlike attitude, are right. :spotted owl:
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    Mandi Norton
     
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    Post » Thu May 31, 2012 3:01 am

    Like the song says, War is the Answer.
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    Angela Woods
     
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    Post » Wed May 30, 2012 10:52 pm

    Wait, so how do you account for Brand-Shei? Telvanni magic? Some secret life-prolonging serum the Argonians administered to him? He looks around middle/early late age, and he lives in Riftin as a commoner, so the long-lived elves thing has an in-game basis, seeing as Brand-Shei is at least 195 by the time you meet him in Skyrim and he seems fine.

    Usually Mer don't reach their expectation due to war and illness, not to their aging effect. Brand-Shei is lucky enough that he is very healthy and were not killed in a war, that's all.
    If a Mer commoner can keep himself healthy and avoid all the fights, he can live as long as any noble can. It's only health and peace that is rare for a commoner to get.
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    Kit Marsden
     
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    Post » Thu May 31, 2012 2:42 am

    The ideal time to strike depends on what you mean by "strike." If you mean, "what would be the ideal time to try and lay some pain on the men," then yes, that'd be just about now. If the Empire won the civil war, use Ulfric's Rebellion as an excuse to round up some Talos-worshippers, and otherwise mess with the Empire. If the Empire lost, support the Empire in a bloody re-conquest of Skyrim, keeping Altmeri losses to a minimum. However, the Altmer don't dare to win yet, because if they do, if they put baby humanity in a corner, Talos / Lorkhan is going to pop up, incarnate, and wreck [censored], like he did in the late 2nd Era, and the end of the Merethic Era. The Altmer need to win the mythological war before they can win the physical one.

    Not only that, but the Dominion focusing on a reconquest of Skyrim would leave their flank dangerously exposed to a vengeful Hammerfell. Regardless of the resources they might have at home, all of their attention would be in Cyrodiil. Given what the Redguards suffered during and after the Great War, they would jump at the chance to get revenge. Such an event would likely cause real panic among the indigenous Altmer as a whole, resulting in large defeats. Carthage was defeated by Rome in the Second Punic War because of an event similar to this.

    It's why the civil war leaves the Dominion between Scylla and Charybdis with which side to support. If the Empire wins, the Empire's military might is primed and ready for fighting back if not launching an attack of their own, in which case Hammerfell is likely to join in. If Ulfric wins, then Skyrim will force the issue with a bloody war of their own - Ulfric says as much while talking with Galmar and the Dovahkiin after Solutude is taken. Hammerfell is again likely to join in. The lesser of two evils here is supporting the Empire, as they can still press at Talos. Should Ulfric win the civil war, then that plan gets squashed.

    The fact that the Dovahkiin enters the fray at that exact moment suggests to me that the Altmer have lost the mythological war already. If we take the Dovahkiin as an incarnation of Talos and/or Lorkhan as events within the game suggest, then considering that the Thalmor are antagonists at every point, Talos/Lorkhan is about to wreck house on the Dominion again.
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    Del Arte
     
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    Post » Wed May 30, 2012 5:20 pm

    Location. Location. Location.

    Also,

    Lifestyle. Lifestyle. Lifestyle.

    Altmeri spend their un-linear days bating breathes and counting carbs with decimals, yogin-mindful of the majuscule mechanics of every miniscule footfall, all the non-while basking in the Anuish beforeglow of Drake-shell phlogiston that propagates pleasant Summurset, the blessed isles of never-winter. Of course they're going to live longer than most monuments stand.

    c.f. Nords, who fight, drink, and live in the frozen wastes.
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    Pete Schmitzer
     
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    Post » Thu May 31, 2012 2:43 am

    LIVE HARD DIE YOUNG
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    Nomee
     
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    Post » Thu May 31, 2012 7:47 am

    Never give foreign enemies and spies diplomatic immunity in your own country. Sun Tzu would be pissed. I'm going to go ahead and say Ulfric is in the right.
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    Andrew
     
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    Post » Thu May 31, 2012 8:40 am

    [snip]

    Basically, there are too many unknown variables for us to know how the Thalmor are faring with regard to demographics, recruitment, etc. This issue has been argued here before, and aside from some interesting speculation, no one could really offer an answer. We don't even know what Dominion field armies are composed of, which castes of Altmer, if any, are involved in fighting, etc. For all we know, a Thalmor army is a single Dracochrysalid mage surrounded by swarms of expendable constructs and client races.

    Standard Protoss-Zerg conflict. If the humans keep up the pressure, the elves wont be able to keep their numbers high enough and the elven economy will collapse.

    See, now I have this mental image of a fleet of golden Thalmor Carriers launching a swarm of beak-shaped Interceptors.

    However, the Altmer don't dare to win yet, because if they do, if they put baby humanity in a corner, Talos / Lorkhan is going to pop up, incarnate, and wreck [censored], like he did in the late 2nd Era, and the end of the Merethic Era. The Altmer need to win the mythological war before they can win the physical one.

    The Thalmor seem like the kind of people who would have a Plan B. Perhaps in the DLC?
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    Jeff Tingler
     
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    Post » Thu May 31, 2012 2:49 am

    See, now I have this mental image of a fleet of http://i.imgur.com/wjHDU.jpg launching a swarm of http://i.imgur.com/E7dXs.jpg.
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    Marquis deVille
     
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    Post » Wed May 30, 2012 8:08 pm

    Wait, so how do you account for Brand-Shei? Telvanni magic? Some secret life-prolonging serum the Argonians administered to him? He looks around middle/early late age, and he lives in Riftin as a commoner, so the long-lived elves thing has an in-game basis, seeing as Brand-Shei is at least 195 by the time you meet him in Skyrim and he seems fine.
    Actually, yes...sort of. Telvanni blood is pure, and bloodline purity is a factor in merrish lifespan (as well as the lifespan of men probably as well, but men don't live as long so the point is moot). Bran-Shei is long lived for an elven peasant though. There was an interview with a dunmer in anticipation of Morrowind (can't find the link on TIL or UESP right now) who said that his family lived to be about 140-150 ish.


    Basically, there are too many unknown variables for us to know how the Thalmor are faring with regard to demographics, recruitment, etc. This issue has been argued here before, and aside from some interesting speculation, no one could really offer an answer. We don't even know what Dominion field armies are composed of, which castes of Altmer, if any, are involved in fighting, etc. For all we know, a Thalmor army is a single Dracochrysalid mage surrounded by swarms of expendable constructs and client races.
    This.


    Location. Location. Location.

    Also,

    Lifestyle. Lifestyle. Lifestyle.

    Altmeri spend their un-linear days bating breathes and counting carbs with decimals, yogin-mindful of the majuscule mechanics of every miniscule footfall, all the non-while basking in the Anuish beforeglow of Drake-shell phlogiston that propagates pleasant Summurset, the blessed isles of never-winter. Of course they're going to live longer than most monuments stand.

    c.f. Nords, who fight, drink, and live in the frozen wastes.
    Thanks for mentioning this, because racial lifespan is also influenced by location...and the idea of altmer trying to watch every step and count carbs is hilarious. "Will this make me fat? Better not eat it as to not be mannish!"
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    rheanna bruining
     
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    Post » Thu May 31, 2012 4:01 am

    This has me thinking, does anyone know what the Thalmor's general reaction would be if they find out that there was a Dragonborn striding about Skyrim? And I'm not talking about the peon, boots on the ground ones stationed in Skyrim. (Save for Elenwen, even then I'm not quite sure if shes well aware of the implications a dragonborn presents to their plans.) I'd hope against hope that they are smart enough to know that sending wave after of nameless fools rarely ends well. In a case like this, another force of equal proportion is usually required, I'd like to see a Altmeri champion that is at least competent enough not to immediately stabbed in the face right off the bat.
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    Laurenn Doylee
     
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    Post » Wed May 30, 2012 7:29 pm

    Actually, yes...sort of. Telvanni blood is pure, and bloodline purity is a factor in merrish lifespan (as well as the lifespan of men probably as well, but men don't live as long so the point is moot). Bran-Shei is long lived for an elven peasant though. There was an interview with a dunmer in anticipation of Morrowind (can't find the link on TIL or UESP right now) who said that his family lived to be about 140-150 ish.

    Consider Symmachus's case, who was farmer-born and perhaps had nord ancestors. He lived to his late 300s or early 400s, and only died because others murdered him. This is definitely an outlived life for a farmer-born. You can't tell his life expecation difference from Barenziah who is from a "purer" bloodline.
    So to a commoner, environment, health care and avoiding being killed in fight or battle is more important.

    Bloodline seems to more likely affect "life extended by magic". Magic affirnity is bond to bloodline, and by that a "purer born" is easier to learn and use magic to extend his/her life. Yet it is not how Brand-Shei's life works.
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    Je suis
     
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    Post » Thu May 31, 2012 7:58 am

    This has me thinking, does anyone know what the Thalmor's general reaction would be if they find out that there was a Dragonborn striding about Skyrim? And I'm not talking about the peon, boots on the ground ones stationed in Skyrim. (Save for Elenwen, even then I'm not quite sure if shes well aware of the implications a dragonborn presents to their plans.) I'd hope against hope that they are smart enough to know that sending wave after of nameless fools rarely ends well. In a case like this, another force of equal proportion is usually required, I'd like to see a Altmeri champion that is at least competent enough not to immediately stabbed in the face right off the bat.

    One cannot tell a "dragonborn" is the incarnation of fragment of Lorkhan or Akatosh, until that dragonborn does some deed to show who (s)he really is or becomes.
    The dragonborn in Skyrim becomes a real Shezarrine because (s)he has gone to Sovngarde and dealed with Alduin, which is the role Shor had played. Yet still, you can't negate the possibility that this dragonborn is sent by Aka (Akatosh-Auriel-Any other time dragon) to deal with a wayward aspect-no-longer.
    I'd hope the Thalmor can be wise enough to keep observation, considering the dragonborn a valuable asset or, if proven not, change him/her into or have him/her elimated.
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    alicia hillier
     
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