Not from a lore perspective, it's like throwing in the towel when in the Lore Forum. Or at least such discussions regarding real-life mistakes should be placed in Oblivion General or TES General.

Well, most of the mistakes have been "fixed", anyway, between MK's mad ramblings and sound fanon.

Doesn't mean we can't call bull[censored] when we see it, though.

You have a very limited view of lore. Lore is a collection of knowledge about the world of Tamriel that isn't limited to the world itself and even though it is desirable, it does not have to be consistent or free of contradictions. It is after all the product of several creative minds who've worked independently from each other. Knowing why they do things differently adds more information about how they saw Tamriel - that is, Lore- and helps to explain why things are what they are.

I find it somewhat difficult to follow an argument around possible holes that are more assumed that explicitly mentioned.

Anyways, the http://www.imperial-library.info/intros/the_arena.shtml, and is also mentioned in http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/complete_dragonbroke.shtml. The main quest in Oblivion does make a few references to Arena, interestingly enough.

I read through the http://www.imperial-library.info/tsoo/the other night, because I haven't played the game in awhile. I rather enjoyed it personally. I'm not sure what unforgivable error the main quest is guilty of, honestly. The issue with the amulet sours it a bit admittedly, as does Mankar's lack of knowledge of the Daedric realms (though that can be given an obvious in-game excuse) and I suppose the fact that old Uriel read Shakespeare might break immersion for some (I rather enjoyed it, personally).

Do take note that within Oblivion we have references to the events of Arena (in the main quest), to the events of http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/warp_west.shtml, and http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/life_uriel_septim.shtml. And I thoroughly enjoyed http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/essays_dwemer.shtml. The developers didn't forget past games when they made Oblivion.

Personally, I think some legitimate criticisms can be leveled against Oblivion, but rejecting the whole main quest as a meaningless, lore-assaulting failure is completely absurd. Maybe you all played a different game than I did. :shrug:

On talking about lore from and in-game and out of game perspective: both are acceptable, though it depends on the subject of inquiry. Some things, like a retcon, will be explained very differently from an in-game or out-of game perspective.

The MQ wasn't a failure because of lore. I'll leave it at that.

And Oblivion added some really great books. I just have to wonder if some of the new designers gave a crap about the series they were working on. For example, whoever made Mankar wear the Amulet (Kurt?) was clearly doing things on a very different level than whoever wrote Jauffre's exposition dialog, the loading screens, etc. As always, there are levels of engagement with not just the lore, but the setting, atmosphere and cohesion of the game as a whole. It's a bit of a disjointed process, something that Morrowind certainly shared.

Jauffre's dialogue and Mankar wearing the amulet by themselves shouldn't be seen as problematic (in my opinion), because Jauffre (as an in-game character) could just be wrong. Now, getting a prompt that confirms what Jauffre says when you try to put the amulet on - that's a problem.

The main quest seemed a coherent story to me, but my take on it may (well, obviously is) different than others. I particular enjoyed the implicit question about who/what propells history (which was basically the leitmotif of the main quest). ("But what path can be avoided whose end is fixed by the almighty Gods?" You're looking at it, Uri). Maybe what I look for in a story is just different than what other people look for.

I suppose it might be beneficial for me to give some indication of why I liked the main storyline of Oblivion. Obviously what someone likes in a storyline is somewhat subjective.

The thing about the events in Oblivion is that almost no one really understands what's going on. The average person living in Cyrodiil doesn't understand what's going on. People living in other provinces don't understand what's going on. The blades don't understand what's going on. Jauffre doesn't understand what's going on. Ocato and the Elder Council don't understand what's going on. Mankar Camoran doesn't understand what's going on. I'm not sure how much Uriel understands. Martin understands what's going on, but only at the very end. When Martin says he realizes what he has to do at the end of the main quest, he's figured it out. That's why (or part of the reason why) he's able to do what he does. The storyline of Oblivion might as well be titled "Martin figures it out."

A story in which most of the characters don't really understand what's going on, which is written in such a way that the reader/listener/player (in this case), can be in the position of either one who understands or one who does not (and thus is involved as a character either way), that's a good story in my opinion. Or at least one way a story can be good, certainly not the only way.

If you don't understand what's going on, well, most other people in Tamriel don't either.

If you do understand what's going on, well, where do we go from here?

The dragon blood matter no more, since the akatosh-martin statue sealed the barrier on Oblivion.

Also, Ocato holds an official position, as the head of the imperial concil, which hold the empire when no emperor is on throne. Also by ingame speechs, local counts says that the concil (aka Ocato) runs the empire, and the emperor is really up the show, much like an english monarchy.

If the Dragon Blood doesn't matter anymore and the statue is just a dumb Stone, then the Empire really is over. The line really has ended this time- Alessia is gone and so are all her children.

Of course, maybe it won't even work if the people don't have faith. Maybe the Cyrodils are like elves now, they've got their own divine intervention to witness and they are going to imprint it on their scavenged Tower.

Even with that definition, it seems more desirable to pursue an in-universe explanation, especially when the artifact in question has only been in the most recent installment and therefore can't have been retconned.

That's not true, the Amulet of Kings is older. than Oblivion. And adding new lore that does not fit in with old lore is worse than a retcon, because it does not even try to establish continuity or a united story.

But the lore introduced in TES IV regarding the Amulet of Kings didn't actually contradict anything prior. Heck, it was barely mentioned before. And I'm pretty sure that adding in new lore that doesn't fit in with old lore IS a retcon.

We know from http://www.imperial-library.info/intros/the_arena.shtml that the amulet warns the Elder Council upon the death of the emperor, and it's suggested in Morrowind that the amulet can make sense of the http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/dragonbroke.shtml, or at least as much sense as can be made of the dragon break. I'm not sure what else there is pre-Oblivion.

*stumbles across forum again*

Might as well log-in and say my usual commentar to matters regarding Septim succession. Skimming the thread it seems to not have been said yet. There still is a legal Septim branch (unless it got killled by the Daedric Invasions). As we know from the Brief history of the Empire, Empress Katariah was no Septim herself, just the husband of Mad Emperor Pelagius III. She was suceeded first by her son with Pelagius, Cassynder, but he in turn was succeeded by her son with a consort, Uriel IV (Uriel Larat), who hence by blood was no Septim, either. However, Cassynder had adopted him in the Septim family, and while Uriel's son Andorak did not become Emperor due to Elder Councils intervention, he was given the Kingdom of Shornhelm - where, according to the Brief History, his descendants still rule!

Who, by law if not by blood, are Septims. Politcially, hence, the Empire could continue, even if quite many provinces will probably not return to the fold. mystically, it would be a "dead Empire" without meaning, but theres precedent for that as well: The Potentate of the Second Era. It would be similar to that. Of course, its noteable that there were two accepted Emperors (and Katariah was probably the best ruler of the Emperor after Tiber himself) who were no Septims by blood! There must be some meaning to that as well... Ill simply assume they wore the Amulet, elsewise their already qutioned legitimacy would have been unmaintainable.

hm, come to think of it, either theres something to that, or we have our contradiction. Though, admittedly, much of this argument rests on estimation.

I think Oblivion is just a History-begins-today deal. The stimulus package of Tamriel.

If the Shornhelm heirs enter the equation, then Bethesda will have to materialize Edman and Abel's (fudged names) sons just to make it interesting.

Oblivion obviously revealed a lot about the mythical significance of the emperor and the empire. What it reveals historically is much less obvious.

Not only does the requirement that the one who wears the amulet be of Septim blood seem to be contradicted by Mankar's wearing the amulet, it also brings up the question of what happened when Uriel III and Katariah were emperors (neither of which had Septim blood). Of course, the Septim empire is actually the third empire, the first being founded be Alessia, the second occurring under Tsaesci rule, and then the Septim dynasty. We know Alessia had the amulet, and later that Reman had it, and we know the Septims have had the amulet. Apparently we need to reconsider either what the requirements for wearing the amulet are, or reconsider what it means to be a Septim. Or both.

Oh, of course, we should not forget that apart from Pelagius I, no Emperor is descendant of Tiber, but actually his sister. Which I did in my post above (still getting into things again,heh... ) If I remember the previous really, really big discussions about it, it doesnt seem to be as much "dynasty-by-blood" as "dynasty-by-idea". Which would explain Katariah and Uriel III, and which means that potentially the Shornhelm Septims could be Emperors in the mythcial sense, too. However, the Empire has run its course, its generally accepted that any continuance will merely be a shadow, similar as said as the Potentate was to the Reman Empire. And of course, even in a dynasty-by-idea Mankar wouldnt be included.

Good observations.

Given all this, I suppose the fact that the Champion of Cyrodiil couldn't wear the amulet is perhaps one of the biggest mysteries of all.




Oh, love your signature.

Assuming we're looking for in-universe answers... There have been times with the bloodline has been broken before. The reign of the Tsaesci Potentates is one example. There was another time before that, though, which hints at how things may have played out...

The Alessian order was destroyed during the War of Righteousness in 1E 2321. Presumably, this broke the bloodline from the original convenant between Akatosh and Alessia. What happened to the Amulet of Kings? Who knows. Why didn't Dagon invade back then? Who knows. It is worth mentioning, though, that these were not good times. The Empire had dissolved and the people were suffering from a plague and a nasty civil war. Perhaps, instead of invading with a corporeal army, he used his influence to sew destruction through other means? (Source: http://www.imperial-library.info/history/1.shtml)

Four hundred years after the War of Righteouness, the creation myth of the Reman dynasty asserts that the spirit of "El-Estia, the queen of ancienttimes"--whom I take to be Alessia--gave the "Chim-el Adabal" (the Amulet of Kings) to an infant Reman I to announce the coming of the second empire of men. My assumption is that this "resets" the bloodline, so the bloodline of interest is now the Reman bloodline, rather than the Alessian. Of course, it's unclear how much of this story is true, and how much of it was made up by the Reman dynasty to legitimize itself through the legend of Alessia. (Source: http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/remanada.shtml)

Of course, the Reman dynasty didn't last long. The events of 1E 2920 ended the Reman dynasty and started the Interregnum, where the Tsaesci Potentates from Akavir ruled the Empire. Once again, it is unclear what happened to the Amulet of Kings, but there is no report of Mehrunes Dagon invading during this period either. However, in the middle of the Interregnum (2E 283) there is another long and deadly civil war. Perhaps this war is due to the destructive influence of Mehrunes Dagon, or perhaps it is due to the presence of an alien administrator.

The http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/remanada.shtml mentions that the Amulet of Kings was lost again during the Interregnum. It begins to talk about the rise of Cuhlecain and the third empire of men, but it is not finished. Presumably, this chapter would have described how the Amulet of Kings was returned to Empire for a second time.

Regardless, it provides a possible answer for what happens to the Amulet of Kings when the bloodline is broken. It stays gone for a while (about 400-800 years, it seems) before being put in the hands of the next Emperor through some supernatural means. So there you go, a semi-plausible explanation for historical inconsistencies in regards to the "bloodline" of the Amulet of Kings.

Mehrunes Dagon did manage to get through at the end of the First Era and ravage Mournhold, but I believe he was summoned in that case.

Red Tower (Mountain) was still active. It's very important because it is an original god-given axis mundi and not an imitation. The loss of White-Gold was felt so immediately because its central position probably triggered the loss of all the others as well.

Very nice, I like that a lot.
Let me just add a few thoughts. I don't think bloodline is the perfectly correct word for the whole issue, because bloodline creates the image of a descendence from a line of kings which is based on physical heritage. That is, imho, just one part of the whole deal. There's the mystical/divine aspect, too. But that's semantics, so I'll leave it at that.

You've got the fixation points of the whole story right on spot: namely, there are three:
1.The creation of the original pact (First Empire) between Alessia and Akatosh (or Lorkhan, depends on who you ask or which source you read (Trials of St. Alessia or the Pelinal-ada, last chapter)).
(Interregnum) - which is described as a not so nice time
2. Recreation of the First Empire: initiated by King Hrol (Bonus question: What did he do and which connection does he have with what Alessia did/represented?)
(Interregnum by the Potentates) - also, from stories, not the best times to live in
3. Another recreation followed: the Septim Empire. There are sources about the relation between some participants (which may or may not be the same person): Hjalti, Talos, Zurin etc. Now the real thing imho to think about comes up: the reestablishment of the divine right to rule ("mandate of heaven"), which means the Dragon Pact (or/therefore: fitting oneself into an existing framework of events/rules).

I postulate (been done before, by others, too): All three events share basic things that have to be done to reestablish a line of kings, including the mythical connections.

In simpler words: If you want to try for a new line of kings, it's best to start making love to a hill (or what or who it represents). If you have what it takes, perhaps it works.
(Comment: anology to real-life mythology: If you wanna be king, try and pull the sword out of that rock. In TES, it's just the other way round. You put a sword into a rock. If someone detects Freud he or she may keep him.)

Indeed, by a coven of witches, at the behest of a spiteful Breton who was dismessed by Lord Vivec for his stupidity. Or so the novel goes. Sotha Sil had made a covenent with the Daedric Princes to limit their ability to be summoned, due to some havoc Molag Bal wreaked in a small village, but by using the witches the Breton got around the limitation.

Anyway back on topic

It's already been mentioned before that the bloodline has been broken twice already. No big deal. The Divine has a way of returning in this Universe. Perhaps another jesus-type Emperor will spring from the dirt. Or perhaps with the big Akatosh statue in the Temple of the One, such things are no longer needed and any old man, mer or beastperson could rule as Emperor.

Or maybe the mythical power of the emperor is no longer restricted to a single individual.

Was it ever? Camaron and Martin could both wear it while alive.


The better question is, will there even bean Emperor anymore? The character Wulf from Morrowind seems to foreshadow changes to the system. Of course, that's obscure speculation, and even Talos doesn't know everything (but considering his connection to Akatosh he should have the ability to see into the future or at least speak to a being who exists in all times simultaneously.)

Will there even be a Morrowind or a Cyrodiil next? Looking at MKs little roleplay in 101?

But consider that the Nords are already restless and they were there at the start so maybe they will be there at the end.