While playing Oblivion, a couple of questions just sprang to mind.


If the Dragonfires keeps the Daedra out of Mundus, how:

1: Can Sheogorath open the portal to the Shivering Isles? (Unless it takes place during the main quest, canon-wise)

2: Can Hircine enter Mundus during Bloodmoon?

3: Can Umaril threaten Tamriel? (Again, this is likely the same as the first one)

4: Can there be Daedra in dungeons and shrines?

Also, shouldn't the player, upon becoming Sheogorath, be barred from returning to Cyrodiil? (I can see how this would be annoying gameplay wise, though.)


There's probably answers to all this, I just haven't found them. Also, it's been ages since I last played Morrowind, so the Hircine thing may be explained in Bloodmoon.

I look forward to hearing people's thoughts on this.

1. The portal presented no threat, it was an invitation to come in.

2. He did.

3. Most likely not after the KotN events.

4. Yes.

1. Invitation and/or event precedented by Grey March prophecy ("framework in which things can happen outside normal rules", also, see Hircine)
2. Yes, though he did in form of an aspect. Also, the event was preceded by a prophecy (=Bloodmoon), so that may be an exception.
3. Yes, definitely. At the time he events around the Knights of the Nine happen, he is a real danger out of the historic relevance he has.
4. Mostly, these are summoned (for example by rogue wizards etc, at least, that was the going in Morrowind). Summoning (even Daedric Princes, if the right person does it), is possible.

CoC and Sheogorath: I am in favour of the "mantling" version of explanation. Mantling, in very short words, is taking up the role of a (divine) power, acting like the power to become it. This is temporary.

As to the barriers in general: I think that the barrier is not an absolute - it's got plenty enough holes. What it does effectively is keeping Oblivion from voluntarily and independently enter the sphere of Nirn. Exceptions are, imho and in short, events preceded by prophecy and actions going from Nirn to Oblivion (which would include Summoning).

Awesome, thanks for the replies. I didn't know that it being preceded p? a prophecy would change anything.

I just started thinking that since Hircine and Umaril could enter Mundus, what's to stop Mehrunes Dagon from simply launching another invasion?


So, part of the difference lies in the fact that Hircine was just an aspect of himself, while Mehrunes Dagon physically came to Cyrodiil?


Again, thanks for the interesting replies.

The thing to keep in mind here is that the Dragonfires (or more specifically, White-Gold Tower) is just one of many http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/nu-hatta_nu-mantia.shtml#5http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/nu-hatta_nu-mantia.shtml#7 stabilizers which serve to solidify the barrier between Nirn and Oblivion. They're not like a solid wall that is impassible, they're just a big hindrance, meaning that if you know how you can get past them.

Hiricine and Umaril both have managed to find little ways in, Hircine through the Bloodmoon (which isn't his full form, making it easier still) and Umaril, well, I don't recall offhand how Umaril manages - Sheogorath just managed to open a small door to his realm, so like I said, getting little bits past the barrier isn't a real problem. What the barriers do manage to do is defend against the big things, which is why Dagon in Oblivion had to take them out before he could come in full-force or open portals directly to Oblivion. The barrier being back is what stops Dagon from launching another invasion - sure, random Dremora can still get in and if somebody really wanted they could probably summon Dagon, but to have gates open directly to Oblivion is another thing entirely and requires a weakening of the barrier. Summoning is another way that Daedra can get past the barrier easily, however it takes effort from this side and really seems to bypass the barrier completely because of that.

As for you being Sheogorath, you may be the Prince, but you're not a Daedra, so the barrier doesn't affect you.

No one mentioned anything about a barrier before Oblivion. The so-called barrier is mostly just Mundus' natural tendency to hold together. Planet Earth remains a ball because of gravity and magnetism. The Gravity and magnetism of Nirn are spiritual, artificial, and divine forces, and they naturally fortify one existence against intrusion by another existence.

Molag Bal destroyed Gilverdale in Valenwood and Dagon obliterated all of Mournhold in the First Era, when the so-called barriers were stronger than they were in Uriel's lifetime.

Summoning > Barrier

Yes. The Portal is not a gate that allows Daedra in the Mundus, it's the exact reverse -- a gate that allows mortals out of the Mundus. Thus, it is not blocked.

As for the island itself, well, it's just an object, not a sentient creature; therefore it isn't bound by the barrier.


Yes, because it is a specific event that specifically allows him to enter. Also note that it is restricted in what it allows; Hircine can only manifest an aspect of himself, rather than being entirely present on Mundus.


Yes. He is half-daedra and half-mortal, so he gets best of both worlds.


Yes. They are summoned there by mortals; they do not come by themselves.


No. Like Umaril, the player gets best of both world thanks to his or her special, unique nature. In fact, the player is actually quite close to Umaril if you think about it; Umaril gained his Daedric nature thanks to Meridia's sponsoring, and the player thanks to Sheogorath's.

I know. But I the Barrier isn't an Imperial mosquito net that you can get past if the universe decides you have good intentions.

Or rather, I really don't like that sort of description, and the false connotations it has.

Lorkhan's reasonable selfishness ftw.

Has anyone considered that the concept of a "barrier" separating Mundus from Oblivion may be simply a metaphor for "the normal state of things," (or at least what is seen as such)?

The aurbis has a certain mythical structure. This structure is often conceived as, for example, a wheel. Within this mythic structure, mythical beings (such as Aedra and Daedra), are understood to play certain roles. Whenever events take place with mythic significance, the mythic structure of the aurbis may alter to some extent, in a corresponding way.

The pact between Alessia and Akatosh forged at the founding of the first empire of man, and represented by the Amulet of Kings, symbolizes an association between the empire and the mythic structure of the world. Basically, the empire as a social/political unit, is a metaphorical microcosm of the mythic structure of reality.

So, the normal functioning of the empire corresponds to the mythic structure of the aurbis being in a "normal" state. The "barrier" is merely a metaphorical way of referring to those things which maintain such "normality." The barrier falling means that the normal state of things, both socio-politically and mythically, has been repealed.

The barrier, then, doesn't keep Daedra out of mundus at all. Instead, it prevents mythic upheaval, which in this case happened to involve a Daedric invasion. I say "happened to involve" because Mehrunes was never the real danger, but Camoran - specifically the "antithesis-to-empire-of-man" sentiment he represented.

I'd hesitate to call the wheel and the Empire the stable or natural state of the Aurbis. The Monomyth and non-mythic history shows there were several stages and none of them lasts. So reasoning the other way around would make more sense. It's the barrier that maintains the Empire.

If not, the idea that maintaining the Empire maintains the peace is just cheap ideology. It's even dangerous as retaining the Empire at all cost will result in same atrocities and upheaval that it's maintenance were intended to prevent.

Now there is every suggestion that the barrier is real and much older. There is the name Chim-El Adabal, the whole Nu-Mantia Intercept and even the Words of the Clan Mother. The barrier keeps Anhur (Padomay) out and Lorkhan in because they don't know the secret. Everybody else can leave without effort.

When I said "normal state of things" I meant normal at the time, not necessarily normal over the whole history of the Aurbis. In this case, normal would be, "the way things typically are (where) during Septim rule" or something like that.

What I intended to say was that, for whatever reason, the empire attained a certain connection to the mythic structure of the world, so that a change in the one entailed a corresponding change in the other. Prior to the empire, there would have been some other mythic structure, and the maintanence of that mythic structure would be equivalent to the maintance of the barrier. The Ayleid empire would have corresponded to another mythic structure, which would have been overturned with the Alessian rebellion, for example.

I'm not arguing that there is no barrier (if my previous post made it seem that way, I apologize). Rather, I'm trying to suggest the barrier is magic in the mythical sense, rather than magic in the mere spell-casting sense.

Wanted to answer to that strain of thought earlier, but never really got around until now.

I agree with you that the barrier is not a "spell" in the common sense, but a mythical border between Mundus and Oblivion, upheld by powers of mythic stature. Barrier is (to me) quite a convenient word to descrbe. I like the thought of the barrier being - a result? - of a certain universal structure. We know well how bad and confusing things can get when someone shakes the Dragon a bit too hard. Also, we know that events like the Tribunal becoming gods results in the rare moment of enabling Mnemoli to visit.
Here's a quick, simplistic and totally unbacked thought: If we take a force - let's say the Empire - who's establishing law and order on both a political and mythical sense, then I think it's quite possible that the result of that law and order would be "Daedra, get off our lawn - because it's ours".

A rather hard-to-find snippet concerning what came before the Alessian/Reman/Septim Empires of Men, in http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/complete_dragonbroke.shtml:
"The Three Thieves of Morrowind could tell you where they were. So could the High King of Alinor, who was the one who broke it in the first place."
Given the high importance of the Ald- and later Altmer in the early Eras '(dawn-, Merethic-), I hold it quite likely, that the Dominion was an important player in the "barrier issue" before the Empires of Men. I'd even go as far and claim that the High King of Alinor did the Emperor's job (tower: Crystal-like-Law) before there were human Emperors (and possibly the Ayleids in between with Adamantium Tower).