Graphics and "New" Screenshots : V - Skyrim

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:21 pm

Graphics account for like, 5% of the game to me. Graphics don't make a game. And I don't need any smart asses saying "So you wouldn't care if Skyrim had Morrowind graphics?" *removed comment about posts which have since been removed*

The graphics in the screens look fine to me. It will look better when the world is living with you anyways, as in when your actually playing.

Jesus, that again.

Planet Elder Scrolls: What do you think was the greatest new development(s) of The Elder Scrolls games over the years? (3D environments, lip-syncing audio dialog, physics, etc.) --> also: non-appearance related developments. Actual gameplay changes, or developments in Bethesda’s approach to the series?
Todd Howard: Technically, it’s fully realized 3D environments. I think the main character and story in our games is the world around you. What the flowers look like, the chairs, the castles, you name it. Exploring that world is the key driving force, and as 3D graphics have gotten better, so have the games. People usually scoff the importance of graphics, but I feel it’s probably the number one thing in a game like this. It immediately puts you in another world, it suspends your disbelief and makes it feel new, or amazing, whatever you want to call it. We obsess over the world detail, and the art and technology to make that happen.

That's way more than 5%.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:50 am

What I don't understand is, why would Bethesda release early-build screenshots of the game as their first-impression when they could use current-build screenshots that look better??

To avoid the multi-tiered fiasco that was pre-release Oblivion information. You had things like Radiant AI and shadows all essentially redacted. Maybe the current builds have "experimental" things which may get the cut during the optimization phase. In addition, this kind of approach leads to avoiding overhyping things, and will actually have a more positive effect come release, when our expectations are blown open, instead of everybody being let down again.

Sorry, that's way over my head. It sounds like you're saying that the claim that AA is "free" on the XBox 360 is a little misleading. It would be better to say: AA is "free" on the XBox 360 provided you can get AA at all. Is that right? And if so, why might there be an issue with getting AA working on Skyrim (using the Xbox's hardware AA)?

Yes, in software you have to have a graphics engine that supports the "free" MSAA. I know that Xbox's own gem "Halo: Reach" used Temporal AA, which is something they implemented themselves. I believe this is also because they took a deferred rendering approach not compatible with hardware MSAA. This point would be moot if we were talking about modern hardware, of course, which supports MSAA even on deferred rendering pipelines.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:14 am

2007 Xbox360 Game
http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/833/833640/mass-effect-review-20071118101316811.jpg

2007 PC Game + Sub Surface Scattering
http://img175.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-7425/loc505/93376_Crysis_Faces_36_123_505lo.jpg

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:46 pm

2007 Xbox360 Game
http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/833/833640/mass-effect-review-20071118101316811.jpg

2007 PC Game + Sub Surface Scattering
http://img175.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-7425/loc505/93376_Crysis_Faces_36_123_505lo.jpg

I thought you just said it wasn't possible on the current generation of consoles. Is that a 360 screenshot?

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:21 am

Yes, in software you have to have a graphics engine that supports the "free" MSAA. I know that Xbox's own gem "Halo: Reach" used Temporal AA, which is something they implemented themselves. I believe this is also because they took a deferred rendering approach not compatible with hardware MSAA. This point would be moot if we were talking about modern hardware, of course, which supports MSAA even on deferred rendering pipelines.

Is there any reason to think that Skyrim's engine won't support the "free" MSAA? (I don't know what a "deferred rendering approach" is, but it sounds like this is incompatible with XBox's hardware MSAA - could Skyrim be using a deferred rendering approach?)

It looks like there's no AA in the screenshots - at least in the creek/waterfall one. Could support for the Xbox's hardware AA be provided later in development? Or could there be some reason for why it's not "turned on" in earlier stages of development?

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:51 am

Jesus, that again.

Planet Elder Scrolls: What do you think was the greatest new development(s) of The Elder Scrolls games over the years? (3D environments, lip-syncing audio dialog, physics, etc.) --> also: non-appearance related developments. Actual gameplay changes, or developments in Bethesda’s approach to the series?
Todd Howard: Technically, it’s fully realized 3D environments. I think the main character and story in our games is the world around you. What the flowers look like, the chairs, the castles, you name it. Exploring that world is the key driving force, and as 3D graphics have gotten better, so have the games. People usually scoff the importance of graphics, but I feel it’s probably the number one thing in a game like this. It immediately puts you in another world, it suspends your disbelief and makes it feel new, or amazing, whatever you want to call it. We obsess over the world detail, and the art and technology to make that happen.

That's way more than 5%.

Perhaps I should say graphics are not MY priority in a game.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:11 am

I thought you just said it wasn't possible on the current generation of consoles. Is that a 360 screenshot?

He's showing that it was already possible in 2007 on PC, but not on consoles. Good thing CryEngine 3 is bringing SSS to consoles in 2011. I'm sure there is little in the way of letting anybody implement SSS if they really wanted to, other than time and money. They could have improved the skin in ME2 if they really wanted to.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:14 am

I thought you just said it wasn't possible on the current generation of consoles. Is that a 360 screenshot?

It's not(yet). Top is 360, bottom is PC. SSS removes the "plastic look."

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:54 am

Is there any reason to think that Skyrim's engine won't support the "free" MSAA? (I don't know what a "deferred rendering approach" is, but it sounds like this is incompatible with XBox's hardware MSAA - could Skyrim be using a deferred rendering approach?)

It looks like there's no AA in the screenshots - at least in the creek/waterfall one. Could support for the Xbox's hardware AA be provided later in development? Or could there be some reason for why it's not "turned on" in earlier stages of development?

I don't know the limitations of MSAA on Xbox. It may not have any transparency AA at all. It seems to me the jagginess appears to really just come from the foliage. I think there is MSAA on most of the other geometry in the scene.

I'm not even sure if the "free" MSAA claims are true at all. I don't care enough to confirm this. I thought it was just the dev kits for the 360 that had "free" MSAA as well as a resolution boost. Most shipped games usually don't make it out at a full 720p. They usually scale up from 544-600p.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:45 am

He's showing that it was already possible in 2007 on PC, but not on consoles. Good thing CryEngine 3 is bringing SSS to consoles in 2011. I'm sure there is little in the way of letting anybody implement SSS if they really wanted to, other than time and money. They could have improved the skin in ME2 if they really wanted to.

It's not(yet). Top is 360, bottom is PC. SSS removes the "plastic look."

Oh, okay. Just as another question, how is the CryEngine bringing SSS over to to consoles? Is there some inherent obstacle with the current generation that just makes SSS very difficult, but Crytek found a way around or what's going on? Is SSS some exception to what the current generation of consoles can handle or are developers still finding some ways to better optimize console hardware to allows some pieces of software to be brought over to consoles? I have no idea how all this works or what could possibly be done, but I'm surprised there's anything more to be squeezed out of current consoles. What else could be brought over?

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:01 am

Xbox360 definitely does NOT have the power to use transparency AA.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:15 pm

It's not(yet). Top is 360, bottom is PC. SSS removes the "plastic look."

Though the 360 screen still looks rather better than the npc in the Skyrim screen.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:21 pm

if you gonna be yapping about the graphics go play some game that has wonderful graphics, but cannot be played for over 400hrs and still remain fun like any TES game can, because I can think of many beautiful games that i loved to play, but didnt even bother buying because the replayability is nill or next to it, that goes for Assassins creed 2, hell I am just gonna say I own 4 games right now that I still play, morrowind,oblivion,fallout3,falloutNV, why because I can come back to them time and again and replay and still love them, bargain for your money and food for the soul that you cant get with even red dead redemption or mass effect 2 or dragons age they just dont do it right like a TES game does,... I forgot I did buy 2worlds2 and sorry for it 3rd playthru already and bored with it just dont grab you

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:53 am

Xbox360 definitely does NOT have the power to use transparency AA.

Does the PS3?

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:25 pm

Xbox360 definitely does NOT have the power to use transparency AA.

Why don't game dev's answer things like this,and put it to bed once and for all.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:10 pm

This. Good graphics svck. Why would anyone want better graphics in an RPG? Us true RPG-ers are disappointed that the graphics are as good as they are. /sargasm.

Seriously, why can't people realize that there multiple aspects involved in determining the quality of a game? Just because some people (myself included) find that really nice graphics add immersion and make a game more enjoyable, doesn't mean you have to get offended and make them out to be shallow, casual gamers that don't care about the story or gameplay. BTW, you state that atmosphere is very important to you, but what part of the game portrays atmosphere more than the graphics and art style? Sure, sound can play a role as well, but you have to admit that graphics are the biggest single factor that determines a game's atmosphere.

Besides, where did anyone say that for every polygon/texture they add, it will cost you 2 hours of dialog? I'm pretty sure the art people are different than those writing the story, who in turn are different from those designing the combat and magic systems. Sure they overlap in some areas, but having a nice looking game does not mean the story or any other aspect will suffer. I just can't understand why gamers don't want a game that excels in ALL areas. I don't get upset when someone talks about wanting a better magic system (which I probably won't use much), or adding spears (which I never use). If they do spend time on that, it will just make for a better game, even if I never touch them...

Flamebaiting/flaming

Jesus, that again.

:nono:

2007 Xbox360 Game
http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/833/833640/mass-effect-review-20071118101316811.jpg

2007 PC Game + Sub Surface Scattering
http://img175.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-7425/loc505/93376_Crysis_Faces_36_123_505lo.jpg

Let's stop with comparing platforms/consoles, it serves as flamebait.

No need to further babysit this thread.