Where in that does it state that it matters whether the Dwemer are alive when their souls were converted into the divine skin? Couldn't their ghosts be converted, I mean a ghost is a soul isn't it?

Near as I can tell.

The problem I have with that particular theory, is that it completely ignores what happened to the entire race of Chimer when three of them (basically) did what one Dwemer had done, which was brought about by a Daedric Prince who, before and since then, has shown a rather vested interest in Morrowind and those who essentially have enough credit with him/her/it.

It doesn't state that anywhere, but the very fact there are Dwemer specters around should be proof enough that they weren't converted - else they wouldn't you know, like, be here still...

It ignores what happens to the Chimer because what happens to the Chimer is irrelevant. The Tribunal did not '(basically)' do what Kagrenac did, not even close, so your point is wrongheaded to start with. I'm not sure why you bring up Azura, as that just goes to further show that the cases between the Dwemer & Chimer are even more different.

Took me too literally, though that's my fault. Let me explain differently: Both Kagrenac and the Tribunal fiddled with a divine object, something Azura obviously didn't want either of them doing. The differences between the races and the intentions of the "offenders" sent their fates in different directions, but they are inexplicably tied. Were there to be no differences, I have no doubt that there would be no Dunmer race.

Couldn't their ghosts be converted, I mean a ghost is a soul isn't it?

Yes, but once a soul is stripped of identity by the dream-sleeve, it wouldn't be a Dwemer soul. Kagrenac was only trying to make his race, the Dwemer, ascend, not all races. If the soul had been stripped of identity, including race, it no longer counts as a Dwemer.

The problem I have with that particular theory, is that it completely ignores what happened to the entire race of Chimer when three of them (basically) did what one Dwemer had done,

Nalion and I already explained this.

The Tribunal were only trying to bind themselves to the heart, each one of them - individually. Whereas Kagrenac was trying to let his entire race ascend - ascend, not become God[s].

There was a recent Topic concerning the Dwemer. They were trying to 'power' the Anumidium (Stompy robot - it's had so many names I've forgotten which one corresponds to what time in history it was used) using themselves. I am one who believes they vanished because Yagrum Bagarn was in an 'Outer-dimension' when Kagrenac tapped the Heart, and thus he didn't have the entire race there with him. Hence, they failed.

In other words, their use of the heart was entirely different than that of the Tribunal's, so the effects were also going to be different.

I'd ask a different question:"What did they (and Dagoth Ur, by the way, too) do differently than the Dwemer?".
I think Kagrenac used the tools in a different way and for a different purpose than the Tribunal or Dagoth Ur did, which then led to a different result.
Edit: LostGatetoCruelty: Jinx!


On the discussion of "ingame sources" for the Dwemer disappearance mystery:
"In a rare scholarly moment, Marobar Sul leaves a few pieces of the original story intact, such as parts of the original line in Aldmeris, "A Dwemer of eight can create a golem, but an eight of Dwemer can become one."
- Chimarvadium, emphasis mine

I don't think it was the use of the Heart that Azura objected to. Wasn't her curse a result on the Dunmer a result of the Tribunal's broken oath to Nerevar? And (http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/marobar.shtml#11) I don't think Azura cared about the Dwemer one way or another.

Oops

I don't believe it to have been that simple.



Well, I do take more than a little stock in that story. Its probably not true, but, I believe it to serve the purpose of demonstrating what the Dwemer represented in the overall scheme of things: Complete and utter defiance to the truly divine, and to things as the divine intend them to be, to a degree unmatched in thousands of years.

Actually it may be that it succeeded - according to one point of view the 'original' Gods discovered that they could not exist as Gods within the Gray Maybe and could not leave it = why they accused Lorkhan of tricking them. If the Dwemer succeeded they may have to have left the Gray Maybe entirely.

Could material of the Gray Maybe do that? Maybe, but if not then they would have to leave without their bodies and perhaps in an entirely new spiritual form ... after all we only have the liar Vivec's word that he cannot see them - so the truth may be that he cannot see them because in their new form they are not visible. Or it may be that he is bound to the Aurbis and the Dwemer in their new form have gone beyond it.


About the word Dwarf - MK has used it to denote Dwemer so feel free to use it according to the character you are playing. I seem to remember something about Giants calling the dwemer dwarves and the Giants seem to be mostly Skyrim. Just be aware that the 'Dun mer' call them Dwemer which means 'Deep Mer'.

Naturally, the word is considered acceptable, it's even used by various characters in the lore, so of course players can use it too. I though usually prefer to use Dwemer, as calling them "dwarves" makes it sound like I'm talking about a bearded midget with a bad attitude who is a bit too fond of ale, aside from the fact that it would seem like Dwemer did tend to have beards, judging from their statues and ghosts, it doesn't seem like that fits them too well. I usually only use "dwarf" when I'm talking about how the Dwemer differ from stereotypical dwarves.

Actually it may be that it succeeded - according to one point of view the 'original' Gods discovered that they could not exist as Gods within the Gray Maybe and could not leave it = why they accused Lorkhan of tricking them. If the Dwemer succeeded they may have to have left the Gray Maybe entirely.

Could material of the Gray Maybe do that? Maybe, but if not then they would have to leave without their bodies and perhaps in an entirely new spiritual form ... after all we only have the liar Vivec's word that he cannot see them - so the truth may be that he cannot see them because in their new form they are not visible. Or it may be that he is bound to the Aurbis and the Dwemer in their new form have gone beyond it.

I doubt the Dwemer could have taken their mortal bodies with them, isn't it said in one myth that their bodies turned to ash, or am I imagining things?

Concerning Vivec, that actually sounds plausible. Trust him to mean he can't see them literally - like physically, when we all expect him to mean spiritually.

I don't think the Dwemer have passed the Aurbis. At least, I haven't seen any walking around lately...

That was the idea, it would seem.



I don't think he's lying, I think he simply lacks/lacked the power. Consider that all three of the Tribunal lost a fight to two Ash Vampires.



That is certainly a possibly. That is, assuming the Dwemer succeeded, which I don't think happened.



I don't know if Vivec is/was bound to the Aurbis (probably was by the time of the Nerevarine), but a good theory nonetheless.



No, you're right. And it's no myth, there's ash piles all over the Dwemer ruins in Morrowind.



I actually never considered that. I imagine I could apply that to a few other things...



Sure you have, they're all translucent, and all but one of them attack you on sight.

Ask Baladas Demnevanni in Gnisis for a researched, albeit convoluted, answer.

What I assume is the case is that Numidium simply was incomplete and unfinished at the time of the Battle of Red Mountain, the Dwemer sensing their defeat decided to attempt to tap the heart, it may have been to try and awaken the incomplete construct or may simply have been to draw upon it's magical properties to wield devastating spells against their enemies.

It's not really established if Dagoth Ur simply rebuilt Numidium from it's dilapidated state after the battle or if he actually complete it....

Well, given that the original was destroyed, I think its safe to say that Dagoth Ur built his own (though granted, he did make it look just like the original)...

lol

But maybe the question should be: 'where is the Dwarf?'

The answer is: He is in Divayth Fyr's Coprusarium beneath Tel Fyr of a modest island just off the east coast of Vvardenfell, which is where he is likely to live out his putatively immortal life.

Bah, hopefully he'll slowly get his memory back. Then once he does there can be a game based around the ramifications of what he does with that knowledge...

flips on the "on" switch for the Numdium, which everyone in history has forgotten to do

Dang - I knew I missed something. But I was told never to push big red buttons.

As for the Last of the Dwemer - it would be great to actually play him as the PC - the tale of his exploits when plane-hopping and the later recovery of his memory could be magic.

You might have to skip the meeting with the Nerevarine - some bits would have to remain blank forever ...

The parts before he got corprus might be fun, but I'm not sure if people would really want to play as a bloated, twisted monstrosity who can't even move properly without the aid of his Dwemer spider legs. I mean, it's no fault of his, but I can't imagine he would be the kind of character that would appeal to people as a player character in that state.

I take your point - but looking at it another way

Try :toughninja: the usual start for the player is wimp so for many bloated twisted monstrosity would be a step up. Possible Quest lines to choose: cure by Fyr; hugely upgraded bionic legs; or discovery of new powers released by the death of Dagoth Ur and the Freeing of the Heart = player decisions through gameplay with various choices leading to differrent outcomes.

You might make it so the player:
- starts at Tel Fyr and then visits his past or
- starts in his past plainshopping, (obviously the player having foreknowledge of that dreadful spectre of the coprusarium looming inescapably in the future will be desperately looking for a way to avoid it perhaps?
- starts as the traveller recently returned from the Outer Planes to discover that all his people are gone and desperately searching for them - and as a player knowing again that the coprusarium is there who knows how far down the road?

These are all powerful themes if handled well.