There is part level scaling in Skyrim, so that's done. I don't know if the loot is leveled or not though. I'd be dissapointed if it was.

Taking a step back for the moment, why should unique items level with you?

On the one hand having the item magically change with respect to the player seems both cheap and unrealistic, on the other hand the player feels cheated when finding an unchanging gimped version of a weapon at a low level. There is a problem either way.

Why does the game need to present variations of unique items dependant on player level, why can't all (unique) items be fixed at the best they can be?

In the case of a weapon, for example, this comes down to the amount of damage the weapon can inflict when used by the player at their current level. If the combat mechanism is based around 'player always hits' then obviously a very high damage weapon in the hands of a low level player would be a game breaker. To counter this there are two options:

1) The damage done by any weapon is determined by the player's skill in the relevant weapon class. This does not have to be a linear scale so low player skill + a low skill requirement weapon can do reasonable damage, while low player skill + a high skill requirement weapon will do more damage but not excessively so. Some people hate this idea 'if I hit something with a hammer it will always do the same amount of damage, character skill shouldn't matter', which can be countered with 'the higher my character's skill the more chance of hitting a vulnerable area so my character will do more damage over time'.

2) Return to the 'player can miss based on their character skill' mechanism, with proper animations :rolleyes:. This limits the amount of damage inflicted over time while maintaining the feel of more powerful weapons. Some people hate this idea, 'I have leet gamer skills, why does my stupid character keep missing? Stupid game'.

So, there must be some way of controlling the effectiveness of unique items, for example, the amount of damage a weapon inflicts, or you accept a broken game. Which option do you prefer?

1) Gimped unique items but constant effect and player always hits.
2) Items that magically change throughout the game.
3) Fixed items, the effects of which are scaled with respect to character skill
4) Fixed items, constant effect, limited by chance to miss/fail dependent on character skill

Edit:
The poll, I almost forgot. Can't vote anyway as my preference is not on the list.
I do not like gimped items, stupid idea.
From my list above, I pick either 3 or 4. Items are not gimped and are not levelled, the effects of the item are governed by character skill.

Leveled ANYTHING is a terrible idea.

Agreed, but there are some things that we can't change Bethesdas minds on, sadly.

I just think that quests requiring a certain skill level to do high level quests (like faction advancement in Morrowind and daggerfall (and maybe arena)) would eliminate this problem. I think that "artifacts" should always have the same stats too.

Hell to the no. A item should always be the same quality at any level. I guess Morrowind's leveled loot wasn't bad, but hell no to Oblivion's. A sword should do the same BASE damage at level 1 as it would at level 20. The only thing is that you might not have access to this weapon, be it high level enemies or skill/rank requirements(security, sneak, being guild master, etc) No item should change it's core stats. A box that would contain leather armor at level 1 should always contain leather armor no matter the level. That's my opinion, and I despise level scaling. There's really no need for it, if the game play itself is there.

I want things to level up to match you, but never level down.

All of the quest reward weapons in Oblivion was worse than the ones you could make yourself, except staffs. Daeric with 25 in shock damage from sigil stone. Only benefit was that some of them looked cool.
A couple of items was very useful, mostly the mage guild rewards.

It was a solution to avoid giving you junk while on the other hand keep top level items away from low level players. The quest in Corrol is a typical low to medium level quest, if unleveled it would give you the level 5 to 10 version of the blade, would that make you happy?
Best option would be to have level requirement on quests like Oblivion daedra quests but less visible as you would not get the quest dialogue if you had to low level. Downside is that this would limit the number of quests and given more junk rewards as you would take many low level quests at high level.

It was far worse that the quest together with most quests you did with npc got harder as you leveled up.

Since level scaling was a total failure overall, and the single most disliked part of Oblivion, I would be highly surprised too see it return in Skyrim.

I'm guessing everything will be at fixed levels for the most part. Quests offering the really good stuff will have some sort of minimum level requirement. Need some safeguards to prevent another Umbra, or Honorblade of Chorrol from happening.

Quests will be scaled to your level and so will loot .
Unique objects that scale are not unique .
"You can not do this mission before level 25" is a terrible way to handhold RPGs

I think that Skyrim should have *a lot* of unique items, each of which should have a specific level of usefulness and perks, and place them statistically around the world or define the conditions and places that they could be found in the world or awarded as the reward of Radiant Story quests, or placed in the inventory of different persons.

If we could define/alter the texture of some specific parts of items meshes in the design time, which we define the items in the Creation Kit, and if we could add item perks to the items that add their effect to the wielder or the action of the item, then designing a massive amount of really unique items would be quite easy, and the designers could use them in a lot of different situations.

But they should have fixed characteristics, but on the other hands could have different versions with different characteristics that would be found elsewhere, or in other situations.

Mmmmm... If I payed any attention to the GI article... Skyrim will have the same level scaling as Morrowind. Set ranges of levels in set areas, so if you go somewhere you can have your ass handed to you if you're too weak.

As far as items which level... Unique items COULD be level-based, but only if they increased in power every level with you. There's something cool about getting a sword at level one and using it until the end of the game. I'm hoping certain RARE equipment exists in very limited quantities, as it did in Morrrowind. And more unique meshes and textures. Leveled loot is only bad when it applies to EVERYTHING. When you can literally get 5 of the most powerful item in the game (Mundane Ring) it takes the feeling of excitement out of getting powerful equipment.

Another approach to 'minor quests' could be that they don't hand out a unique item that gets worthless in a few levels. Heck, when you are level 3 or something the shopkeeper could reward you with a Silver Shortsword. In terms of usable it will be a great item for the player to get as he's mostly stuck with Iron (probably). This could entice players to perform more mundane tasks as they could offer you better items than you currently wield. The artifacts and legendary weapons could then be spread over the world with some of them part of dangerous (Daedric?) quests.

I also do not mind levelled loot in dungeons, as long as the loot makes sense (so no Septims and fresh apples in ancient locked Ayleid Reliquaries) and the dungeons are not totally devoid of potential artifacts or rare/powerful items. In Oblivion you knew exactly what you'd find in a dungeon (random junk) with no chance at all of finding something special. This took away my willingness to explore as it was rather pointless. In Morrowind the dungeons retained their sense of feeling special. In Dwemer ruins you'd find Dwemer loot, ancient schematics, Dwemer currency and ebony/glass/gems. Minor dungeons usually had more mundane loot with the odd artifact on occassion and Daedric shrines could offer great rewards (or a quick death at the hands of a Dremora)

So I hope that *if* we get to delve down into ancient (previously unexplored) Falmer or Dwemer sites, we will find items that were native to those cultures instead of modern-day items.

Greetz,

Milt

I hated the level-loot and quest items in Oblivion. It defenately needs to change.

I think the whole problem is that the last game focused too much on getting more "impressive" armor and weapons, and less on improving your character's skills with them. If the difference in stats between the best gear and the most basic were somewhat less drastic, scaling the rewards wouldn't even be a problem. Personally, I don't get any satisfaction from pure "numbers" increases. Just because my old item did 2 damage and this one does 20 doesn't thrill me, especially if the opponent that used to have 10 hitpoints now has 300.

If you manage to get a somewhat better-than-average weapon in a game which is only partially levelled and only minimally scaled, it's a help, but not a game-breaker. In a game where everything's adjusted to your level, an item out of place totally throws off the balance of the whole game, and makes everything else too easy. In MW, grabbing a powerful artifact at a low level tended to make things in the starting areas too easy, but you could still find plenty of challenge in places where such powerful gear, along with higher skillls, were all but required to survive. Reward scaling wasn't required, and the difficulty of the quest or guarded access to the artifact could sometimes be used to prevent low-level characters from getting the high-level quest rewards too soon. In Oblivion, it would have made EVERY one of the otherwise "balanced" fights too easy, so Bethesda had to nerf the items in case a low-level character got them.

In other words, reward scaling was a band-aid to patch a problem. If Bethesda fixes the underlying problem, then the band-aid isn't necessary.

I agree 100%.

If you get some kind of powerful object in a world without much level scaling, it's a small advantage but no big deal - there are still lots of dangerous enemies out there.

Too much loot scaling makes everything bland at all levels. You are never surprised by the loot, never disappointed. Just like too much enemy scaling removes the highs and lows - and therefore the interest - from combat. And for balance reasons you can't scale one without scaling the other.

As others have said I believe unique items should have set stats, so if you get a 'good' item at a low level you'll have earned it. I hate oblivions approach to quest rewards as it forces delaying quest completion.

I dont see a skeleton champion having a glass armor.

Do you?

And I don't a rat carrying a steel sword.


So TES's classic "what you see on the ennemy is what you get" (for visible items) should not be replaced by leveled loot.

Unique items shouldn't be leveled at all. Loot should be slightly leveled.

Why level loot when you can just have it fit to the difficulty of getting it?

I hate leveled loot for two main reasons.

First, if you want to get the best possible items, you have to avoid doing any quest before reaching the maximum level.

Second, if you want to collect every object of a given type, let's say every in-game helmet, you have to avoid raising your level in order to stilll be able to get the low-level pieces you haven't get yet.

If there is some random loot, then the level of this should depend only on the place it is found in, not on the current level of the player.

Having to wait before doing anything not because you aren't strong enough yet to do it, but due to reasons lying in the realm of game mechanics is not very player-friendly. It could even be said, in my opinion, that it is the very contrary of the purposes aimed at by any good gameplay.

well no i dont want leveled loot , i was disappointed that my Chillrend was crap compare to it maximum lv.


and static leveled areas and dungeon would svck i want to go to place went i want not wait till i am stronger and go to a dungeon or area.

Yes, I guess that's a more simple way of wording the problem. Loot you get from looting bandits/chest etc, those being leveled to around your level is fine, but I just hate that for quest rewards.

What about tying the loot to the relative difficulty of the task itself.

Some quests (the Jemane quest come to mind) requires very little skill and exposes you to no more danger than you'd find simply walking out in the world. So since the quest is easy, the reward should be cheap. If a quest is dangerous (say taking down a large vampire nest) there should be a much better reward. I don't see why it wouldn't work with other chests in caves. If I fight my way through 60 well armed Imperial mercenaries, my loot should be fairly decent. On the other hand a rat infested cave should get me lots of cheese.

As to Daedric type quests -- no level locks. If you survive, you get the goods. End of Line.

Oddly I'm ok with partially levelled bad guys, but I think that loot should not be levelled. Actually - the generic stuff probably can still be levelled, but there needs to be a lure for trying tough areas, and a reward for sneaky thieves.