I've reached the mod limit at 189 mods, what can I do? : Fallout 3

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:26 pm

At first I thought I must have downloaded a poorly made mod, because I was getting missing texture icons and crashes within 10 seconds of loading the game up.

However, after several hours slowly going through my mod list ticking them off one by one to see which one turned off would cause the problems to vanish, I came across a problem.

When I thought I had found the problem mod and then gotten rid of it, I loaded the mods I had already passed as OK and yet again the same problem was occurring.

This made me curious, and so I unchecked the new mods I had downloaded yet again, only this time I purposely loaded up the mods I had seen caused problems -- guess what? No problems this time! (because with all the new mods unchecked I was underneath the magic 189 number).

Anyways, I figured out that whenever I crossed into the 190 range (regardless of what mod I checked on or off), missing textures and crashes started to happen.

Is there anything someone can suggest to solve my problem?

I'm not sure if making a merged patch means that it literally combines all of my esp files into one esp file? Or what... or is that a bashed patch (I have no idea how to make a bashed patch, I've just seen the term).

Well, anyway I tried to make a merged patch but it didn't actually combine the mods like I thought it might. I was missing features that should have been there.

So... what do I do?

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:45 am

AFAIK, you have 2 choices: use the GECK to combine mods, essentially creating your own personalized mod, or read up on WryeFlash (WryeBash for FO3) and add qualifying mods to your bashed patch.

I haven't done this myself so I can't give specifics.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:39 am

http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=5104

I found this!

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:58 am

I'm very doubtful you have reached any limit - the hard limit is 255 just like Oblivion (and that will include the ess file).

More likely you have a conflict that you have not identified yet.

I run with what would be 246 mods if they were all active but since I use http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=11336 I only need to have 197 active which is still above the limit you propose.

Spoiler

Active Mod Files:00  Fallout3.esm01  Anchorage.esm02  ThePitt.esm03  StreetLights.esm04  BrokenSteel.esm05  PointLookout.esm06  Zeta.esm07  Unofficial Fallout 3 Patch.esm  [Version 1.2.0]08  Inventory Access.esm09  IMCN.esm0A  Destruction.esm0B  PointLookout-FollowersGetToGo.esm  [Version 2.]0C  Impervious Power Armour.esm0D  CRAFT.esm0E  CALIBR.esm  [Version 1.4]0F  xCALIBR.esm10  xCALIBRuniverse.esm11  Project Beauty.esm12  Refurbishes [ALL].ESM13  CubeExperimental (EN).esm14  Project Genesis.esm  [Version 1.00]15  FO3 Wanderers Edition - Main File.esm16  Mart's Mutant Mod.esm17  Companion Core.esm18  Companion Share & Recruit.esm19  RobCo Certified v2.esm1A  Wasteland Whisperer v2.esm1B  Enhanced Weather - Rain and Snow.esm1C  Xepha's Dynamic Weather.esm1D  DCInteriors_ComboEdition.esm1E  Zumbs' Overhauled Real Time Security.esm1F  SS Master File.esm20  Ambient Temperature.esm21  Unofficial Fallout 3 Patch - Operation Anchorage.esp  [Version 1.2.0]22  Unofficial Fallout 3 Patch - The Pitt.esp  [Version 1.2.0]23  Unofficial Fallout 3 Patch - Broken Steel.esp  [Version 1.2.0]24  Unofficial Fallout 3 Patch - Point Lookout.esp  [Version 1.2.0]25  Unofficial Fallout 3 Patch - Mothership Zeta.esp  [Version 1.2.0]26  FireLightFix.esp27  DarNifiedUIF3.esp28  Ambient Temperature HUD.esp**  Project Beauty- Broken Steel.esp**  Project Beauty- Point Lookout.esp29  StreetLights - Wasteland.esp2A  DoF-PureLow.esp2B  TinCanCRAFTing.esp  [Version 2.0]2C  CRAFT - EnergyAmmo.esp2D  CALIBRxMerchant.esp2E  LMDExpandedHotkeysFO3.esp  [Version 0.6]2F  Princess Better Prompts v1pt1.esp++  Zombie Sounds V2.esp++  GeneratorSound.esp30  Moshman's Wasteland Ambiance.esp31  GalaxyNewsRadio100[M].esp32  RadioBlues.esp33  WAR_radio.esp34  People_Radio.esp35  InvasionRadio.esp36  KBATRadio.esp37  VTAP25.esp38  GhostRadio.esp39  mutantradio.esp3A  LookoutRadio.esp3B  RadioTenpenny.esp3C  Radio Stutter fix.esp3D  RadioHotkey.esp3E  RadioHotkey_RadioBluesAddon.esp3F  TCOS.esp40  CONELRAD 640-1240.esp41  Existence2.0.esp42  UPP - Pack 1.esp43  UPP - Pack 2.esp44  UPP - Original Perks.esp45  UPP - Experience Perks.esp46  UPP  - Quest Perks.esp47  PreWar Book Titles and Perks.esp48  Combat Style Perks.esp49  NotSoFast.esp4A  HeirApparent.esp4B  NightmareRealm.esp4C  MarkB50K_Wasteland_Patrols.esp4D  tubRRCompound.esp4E  Stealth Kills Enabled.esp++  Stealth Kills Enabled - Pitt Compatibility.esp4F  Echo_BatteryCharger.esp50  HouseholdWaterPurifier.esp51  BlackWolf Backpack.esp52  GunnySack.esp  [Version 1.3]53  1Animated Nightvision goggles.esp54  FNVFOV.esp55  Xepha's Radial Blurred Zoom.esp56  Directional PipLight HDR.esp57  Down Under.esp  [Version 1.0]58  Expanded Megaton House V3.esp59  MaintenanceShed.esp  [Version 1.3]5A  merc.esp5B  MoreMapMarkers.esp5C  MaxLevelWorkaround-HP-BS.esp5D  WastelandMastery.esp5E  SkillCheck.esp5F  Treasure Maps_Underground.esp60  Treasure Maps_Secrets of the Wasteland.esp61  Treasure Maps_Bobblehead Edition.esp62  Treasure Maps_A Fist Full of Caps.esp++  Destruction - Main.esp63  Destruction - Main - Statics.esp++  Destruction - DLC.esp64  Destruction - DLC - Statics.esp65  BusworldV1.05d.esp66  SS Enhanced Combat Maneuvers.esp67  MTC Wasteland Travellers.esp68  DCInteriors_DLC_Collectables.esp69  Rivet City Realignment.esp6A  megalight.esp++  WastelandRecovery5.esp6B  MovinOnUp3.0.esp6C  Canterbury Estates 0.8 beta.esp6D  FO3 Wanderers Edition - Main File.esp6E  FO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC Anchorage.esp6F  FO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC The Pitt.esp70  FO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC Broken Steel.esp71  FO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC Point Lookout.esp72  FO3 Wanderers Edition - DLC Mothership Zeta.esp73  FO3 Wanderers Edition - Alternate Travel.esp++  FO3 Wanderers Edition - Optional Restore Tracers.esp74  FO3 Wanderers Edition - Optional VATS Realtime.esp++  FO3 Wanderers Edition - Project Beauty.esp++  FO3 Wanderers Edition - Project Beauty (Followers Enhanced).esp75  FO3 Quest Patch - FWE + BS.esp76  WeaponModKits.esp77  WeaponModKits - FWE Master Release.esp78  WeaponModKits - OperationAnchorage.esp79  WeaponModKits - ThePitt.esp7A  WeaponModKits - BrokenSteel.esp7B  WeaponModKits - PointLookout.esp7C  WeaponModKits - Zeta.esp++  Echo_UseBothGloves.esp7D  AlexScorpion's  and Weijiesen's Smoking Fun.esp7E  Tactical Weapons by gRs Frederyck.esp7F  ZL-ACR.esp80  ZL-SVD-CALIBR.esp++  InverseCombatKnife.esp81  Playing With Firepower.esp82  Dogmeat Leather Armor - CRAFT.esp83  Dragonskin Tactical Outfit.esp84  DragonskinBonusPack.esp85  Stealthboy Recon Armor - CRAFT.esp86  Powered Power Armor.esp87  PPA - Operation Anchorage.esp88  PPA - Broken Steel.esp89  PPA - The Pitt.esp8A  PPA - Mothership Zeta.esp8B  PPA - FWE.esp8C  CALIBR Ammo Schematics - CRAFT.esp8D  CRAFT Improvised Weaponry.esp8E  CRAFT Improvised Weaponry - Unmodeled.esp8F  DogmeatEssentialModv1.2.esp90  Move-Dogmeat.esp++  DogmeatStealth.esp++  ZORTS - Custom HP - FWE.esp91  ZORTS - Disable FWE activate.esp92  Companion Core DLC Addon.esp93  Wasteland Whisperer v2 Broken Steel Addon.esp94  RobCo Certified v2 Mechanist's Edition.esp95  RobCo Certified v2 Zeta Addon.esp96  Mr Smith's Scrapyard.esp++  tubURP.esp++  ThePitt-NoFireFollowers.esp97  ImmersiveHealth.esp98  FalloutFood.esp++  FalloutFoods - FWE Master Release.esp**  Gunfire Sound Range Increased.esp99  EVE.esp9A  EVE Operation Anchorage.esp9B  EVE - FWE Master Release.esp++  EVE - FWE Master Release (Follower Enhanced).esp++  EVE Anchorage - FWE DLC Anchorage.esp++  EVE - FWE with WeaponModKits.esp9C  Mart's Mutant Mod.esp9D  Mart's Mutant Mod - DLC Anchorage.esp9E  Mart's Mutant Mod - DLC The Pitt.esp9F  Mart's Mutant Mod - DLC Broken Steel.esp++  Mart's Mutant Mod - DLC Point Lookout.espA0  Mart's Mutant Mod - DLC Zeta.espA1  Mart's Mutant Mod - FWE Master Release.espA2  Mart's Mutant Mod - FWE Master Release + DLCs.espA3  Mart's Mutant Mod - FWE Master Release + Project Beauty.espA4  Mysteriouswoman_corsetntrousers.espA5  Imp's More Complex Needs.espA6  IMCN - 5 DLC Merged.espA7  IMCN - FWE Compatibility and Ingestibles.espA8  IMCN - MMM Meats, Bloods, and Eyeballs.espA9  IMCN - Ambient Temperature.esp++  PPA - IMCN.esp++  T3T_MiscItemIcons.esp++  ACRForFWE.esp++  SVDForFWE.esp++  DTOForFWE.espAA  Zumbs' Smaller Condition Effect On Item Value.espAB  Gifts4Kids.espAC  NTFS.espAD  Phalanx-Obedient-Dogmeat.esp++  lessviewdistance.esp++  PiPBoy Light Range x4.esp++  PiPBoy Yellow Light.espAE  Enhanced Weather - Rainbows.espAF  Enhanced Weather - Weather Sounds in Interiors.espB0  Realistic Interior Lighting.espB1  Realistic Interior Lighting - BS.espB2  Realistic Interior Lighting - OA.espB3  Xepha's Dynamic Weather - Main.espB4  Xepha's Dynamic Weather - Anchorage.espB5  Xepha's Dynamic Weather - The Pitt.espB6  Xepha's Dynamic Weather - Broken Steel.espB7  Xepha's Dynamic Weather - Point Lookout.espB8  Xepha's Dynamic Weather - Experimental Green Tint Remover.espB9  Xepha's Dynamic Weather - Rain.espBA  Xepha's Dynamic Weather - Sandstorm.espBB  Xepha's Dynamic Weather - NightTime SneakBoost.espBC  Xepha's Dynamic Weather - Sandstorms Damage Armor.espBD  RobCo Certified v2 Omnipatch.esp++  RobCo Certified v2 Impervious FWE.espBE  xCALIBRuniverse.espBF  xCALIBR - Alternative Path.espC0  xCALIBRUniverse - WMK.espC1  xCALIBRuniverse_FWE_FPS.esp++  xCALIBRammo_FWE.esp++  frederyck+FWE+xCALIBR.espC2  tubunarFWE.espC3  tubunarCombatFWE.espC4  Bashed Patch, 0.esp

Do you use http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=10193?

Let's see the load order.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:10 am

Anytime you change your mods with an existing save, you want to run FO3MasterUpdate.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:04 am

I know there is a hard limit BUT I think that different systems might have a soft limit.

Honestly, there's no conflict because as I said, regardless of which mod I tried the same problem would occur only at a certain number. 190!

Also, once I used the program that merged plugins for me, all of the problems went away... even though I was using the same mods.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:28 am

While yes you can merge mods in the harsh fashion that tool provides you are likely to run into problems later with versions of mods being updated and you can't update because you merged said mod with another mod that you can't/don't want to take out.

I can think of other reasons too.

I'd highly recommend learning bash and you will be surprised that many mods can be merged more dynamically.

... and not that it matters to you = but I'm not buying the soft limit - that is unless your computer is over 6 years old.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:52 am

While yes you can merge mods in the harsh fashion that tool provides you are likely to run into problems later with versions of mods being updated and you can't update because you merged said mod with another mod that you can't/don't want to take out.

I can think of other reasons too.

I'd highly recommend learning bash and you will be surprised that many mods can be merged more dynamically.

... and not that it matters to you = but I'm not buying the soft limit - that is unless your computer is over 6 years old.

Soft limit might not be it.... but what happened eliminates the possibility of a conflict. Didn't matter what mod(s) it was that I turned off or on; anything 189 or under worked perfectly whilst anything above did not.

PS. I only merged things that either wouldn't be updated/small mods. I also made a log of what they were and created copies of all originals.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:03 am

I think if you had hit a limit of any sort, the game would CTD as soon as opening, much like what happens if you start the game with a missing master. I dont think you would be able to play at all because the game would refuse to load 'too many' mods. You must have a conflict. Also the missing texture things means you either installed something improperly, or someone who made a mod forgot to include textures or set the path wrong.

One huge question I dont think anyone has asked yet; Did you slowly build up to this 189 and it broke suddenly now, or did you installed all of these mods at once and its not working? You should never install more than a few mods at a time because it makes it very difficult to locate a problem mod in the case of an issue such as this.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:52 am

I think if you had hit a limit of any sort, the game would CTD as soon as opening, much like what happens if you start the game with a missing master. I dont think you would be able to play at all because the game would refuse to load 'too many' mods. You must have a conflict. Also the missing texture things means you either installed something improperly, or someone who made a mod forgot to include textures or set the path wrong.

One huge question I dont think anyone has asked yet; Did you slowly build up to this 189 and it broke suddenly now, or did you installed all of these mods at once and its not working? You should never install more than a few mods at a time because it makes it very difficult to locate a problem mod in the case of an issue such as this.

I've fixed the problem myself as I said earlier... I know the usual thing people do is blame user incompetence. That's justified 99% of the time. However I'm wondering at this forums level of reading comprehension at this point. I've written several things that should have ruled out broken install paths and conflicts alike.

Here's the thing... I didn't have to delete any mods in order to solve my problem. All I had to do to solve the problem was create a merged plugin file.

You know, just to make extra sure what I've seen was correct on this issue, I created two separate merged plugin files. Each with different esp's inside. Both had a set of 21 esp's in them which brought me down to 189. Both solved my problem... it wasn't a matter of which mods were in the combined .esp, it was simply a matter of getting them down to that number.

To further test whether or not it was indeed simply the number of mods I was having to load instead of a conflict, I took those same merged plugin files and instead of having 21 esp's in them, I tried them with 20 instead (thus bringing me to 190 total plugins). When I did this, regardless of which set I used, I again had issues.

To even further test this issue, I then re-inputted the mods I had taken out into the merged plugins and took out a different mod instead (again bringing me to 190 mods total). Yet again, crashes happened.

What I'm trying to say is, regardless of what mod I use, as long as it's the mod that brings me over 189 mods, I get issues.

It took only the smallest mod changing only one record being enabled to cause all sorts of problems (one of the most curious of which was the inability to use my Escape key)....

While a large mod caused the exact same problems.

I know I'm not a good writer, and this is such as odd occurrence so it's difficult to put into words.

Another thing ruling out improperly installed textures/meshes or anything else was the fact that it affected every NPC -- it even affected Enhanced Blood Textures. I have many mods editing many things, from raider specific ones to power armor specific ones to blood specific ones... they wouldn't have all been installed incorrectly... and if they were... they wouldn't be working now.

I did find in all of this one horribly made mod that if you're truly interested in looking into as a possible cause of this problem you can try out yourself. All it was supposed to do was edit one of the generic food types into Twinkies instead.... I was wondering why it needed a .ESP file for this but I went with it anyway.

Turns out this .esp file was loaded with all sorts of crud it didn't need. Scripts for bobbleheads was what tipped me off, because I started a new game and I noticed that when i clicked on a bobblehead (I have FWE installed), the message that pop up informed me I was receiving a bonus of 0 (instead of 5 for the medicine bobble in the alternative start shack)... and the bobblehead stayed where it was instead of going into my inventory.

So I loaded up all the new mods I had gotten recently in TESedit and did a quick search with the keyword "bobb" and I noticed that the mod from http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=13402 actually had those scripts attached for some reason. This was the post-war one I believe.

So maybe it was also the cause for all of my other problems....... but I doubt it because of everything else I've written. As long as I was underneath 190 mods, even with this Twinkies mod checked ON, I wasn't missing textures or having crashes and I could use my Escape key.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:06 am

Look I understand your frustration - I really do. Everyone of my stars I earned on the mods forums here and mostly in debugging my load order but also in helping others in their load orders and playtesting mods for modders.

Look up my threads - I've several threads that are tutorials and such - so I'm just trying to help and not at all trying to jump on the new user (which you are obviously not).

That said many other things can contribute to missing textures and objects in game. If you are getting the exclamation points or pink textures then that is mismanaged installs. if, on the other hand, things are not rendering and you get things like heads with eyes and no face or parts of buildings and landscapes that are not showing up then that could be either a hardware issue or you are hitting a memory allowance ceiling. But we can't know that because you didn't really give computer specs or any information in that regard.

It could also be mod conflcits. I definitely had issues like that when trying to run the mod destruction without Wrye Flash.

Also you mention that it did not matter what mods you used as you reach this limit of 190 but then you don't share what mods your using except a buggy twinky mod. So what if you had one or two mods that actually conflict with a great many mods and as you start to add more mods these problem mods then start to show more issues that they would not with less mods.

Another aspect of this is aim. Your aim appears to be 'get my problem solved and drop the issue.' My aim is to find out how 190 could be any kind of limit at all. So without describing load order or computer specs it sounds incorrect and this will likely be advocated by all who stumble upon this thread which will be here now for months to come. My aim is this because I like contributing to knowledge others can use.

Then again it is experience. I run three Oblivion load orders two of which are at max mods and then also the fallout3 load order I shared above. I would run more mods for F3 if there were more worth running.

We discovered that with Oblivion there was an upper limit (above the 255 esp/esm limit) that included the number of ini files, inactive esps, etc allowed in the data folder before something known as directory thrashing would occur (similar symptoms). This is likely not the case with you as F3 engine has also proven to be more sturdy than Oblivion and you are not even near the 255 limit.

So I'd bet you either have more twinkys in your load order or you have hardware issues (that could just be dated hardware).

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:14 am

Look I understand your frustration - I really do. Everyone of my stars I earned on the mods forums here and mostly in debugging my load order but also in helping others in their load orders and playtesting mods for modders.

Look up my threads - I've several threads that are tutorials and such - so I'm just trying to help and not at all trying to jump on the new user (which you are obviously not).

That said many other things can contribute to missing textures and objects in game. If you are getting the exclamation points or pink textures then that is mismanaged installs. if, on the other hand, things are not rendering and you get things like heads with eyes and no face or parts of buildings and landscapes that are not showing up then that could be either a hardware issue or you are hitting a memory allowance ceiling. But we can't know that because you didn't really give computer specs or any information in that regard.

It could also be mod conflcits. I definitely had issues like that when trying to run the mod destruction without Wrye Flash.

Also you mention that it did not matter what mods you used as you reach this limit of 190 but then you don't share what mods your using except a buggy twinky mod. So what if you had one or two mods that actually conflict with a great many mods and as you start to add more mods these problem mods then start to show more issues that they would not with less mods.

Another aspect of this is aim. Your aim appears to be 'get my problem solved and drop the issue.' My aim is to find out how 190 could be any kind of limit at all. So without describing load order or computer specs it sounds incorrect and this will likely be advocated by all who stumble upon this thread which will be here now for months to come. My aim is this because I like contributing to knowledge others can use.

Then again it is experience. I run three Oblivion load orders two of which are at max mods and then also the fallout3 load order I shared above. I would run more mods for F3 if there were more worth running.

We discovered that with Oblivion there was an upper limit (above the 255 esp/esm limit) that included the number of ini files, inactive esps, etc allowed in the data folder before something known as directory thrashing would occur (similar symptoms). This is likely not the case with you as F3 engine has also proven to be more sturdy than Oblivion and you are not even near the 255 limit.

So I'd bet you either have more twinkys in your load order or you have hardware issues (that could just be dated hardware).

That all makes sense but due to the large number of mods I tested all with the same results showing issues at exactly the same number... ~ 60 different mods regardless of what was selected. Including mods such as "No Fall Damage", you know, things that go in and change one or two game variables should not cause the game to be unable to quicksave/load use the escape key/cause missing textures (sometimes these textures were shown as exclamation points, sometimes they were shown as purple heads and body parts, sometimes half of the NPC's in a group looked normal while the other half were messed up, and crashes upon encountering any NPC).

IF there was one particular mod that was causing conflicts, then why did those problems occur with all mods regardless of what they edited, why did those problems only appear at a certain number of mods loaded, and why did the problems all go away even though I was using exactly the same mods in the end (only merged)? If there was a conflict, the conflict should still be there considering I'm using the exact same mods.

Occams razor.

I spent around 6 hours testing this stuff out that day, going over each mod one by one, testing to see what each individual new mod would cause to happen and then testing it again with a F03 merged patch/master update just to be on the safe side. It's not as if I wasn't thorough. Although I may never have bothered to learn garybash or wanted to deal with Python, I'm not new to modding my fallout game and checking for conflicts, or computer troubleshooting in general for that matter.

My hardware is fine enough. I'm running Windows 7, Nvidia GTX 460 OC, Athlon 5200+ X2, 4 gigs of 1066 ddr2, I don't feel like checking my motherboard out atm but off the top of my head it's a ga-ma770-ds3p revision 2, my HD is a western digital caviar black 1 TB...

It's all a good enough set up to be running FO3 on the highest settings (cept for water which is weird on my comp), with NMC texture pack, with all the BOSdx packs, with the high rez armor pack that takes all the other armors in the game and increases their resolution, with a weather overhaul, with numerous clutter texture improvement packs/gun texture improvement packs. And probably more that I'm not thinking about. It requires fo3 stutter remover to be hand-tweaked a bit and every once in awhile if there are a lot of mobs (since I'm running MMM), and I'm outside, and I turn around really fast in combat, I get some stutter that is usually fixable with a ~pcb command.

But I digress. I understand your curiosity, but I feel this threads question no longer needs to be asked since I've found a solution to the problem. It's also a bit harder to be curious when I'm the person who has to do all the work, and already spent far too much time on it to begin with.