Greetings everyone!

I am new to Elder Scrolls lore, but I have been immersing myself in it recently. One thing has eluded me however: How did Tiber Septim become a god?

I mean, all I ever hear is that he ascended, achieved apotheosis, etc., but never how.

Please help.

Nine gods, Eight planets? Are you sure you counted right?

Muthsera,

The man who became known as "Tiber Septim" achieved apotheosis through a process known as "mantelling", which in this instance involved "the steps of the dead". He lived out the phrase "walk like them until they must walk like you." (http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/nu-hatta.shtml)

Tiber utilized the Dwemeri golem known as "the Numidium". The exact method is debated among lore-o-philes, but my version is that Tiber picked up where the dead Dwemer (yes, they are dead. See http://www.imperial-library.info/jobasha/sermon0revealed.shtml) left off, which is what following in "the steps of the dead" mean.

Tiber also utilized a being known as "the Underking" for his conquests, allowing the Underking to pose as him on the battlefield while he did the administrative work from the safety of the Imperial City. (See http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/arcturian.shtml) "Shor" is just the Nordic name for "Lorkhan". (see http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/varietiesoffaith.shtml) The man who ended up becoming "the Underking" (a guy named "Ysmir Wulfharth") started as as a mortal who, because of his great skill as a warrior (which matched descriptions of Lorkhan in his "Shezzar" guise), became "the ghost of Shor". (http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/wulfharthsongs.shtml) However, from http://www.imperial-library.info/jobasha/sermon0revealed.shtml we learn that "the ghost of a god is no man". Therefore, the Underking was no longer a regular mortal once he became a ghost of Lorkhan.

Now we get to Tiber Septim. Just as the Underking became the ghost of Shor by mimicking in a "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck" line of logic, effectively becoming Shor himself. Tiber just mimicked the Underking (whose exploits were being attributed to Tiber anyway) by actually having the Underking do the job for him. (Ever see Rodney Dangerfield's "Back To School" movie where he flunked a paper on Richard Faulkner that he paid Richard Faulkner to write? Something like that.) Once the name "Tiber Septim" became synonymous with a "ghost of Shor", Tiber Septim had then "walked like them" until he became them. Tiber became a god by resting on his haunches!!! Now he just needed Lorkhan's heart to power the Numidium like the Dwemer did once upon a time and he would be on his way. However, he didn't want to just blip out of existence, so he changed it up a bit. How could he use the Heart of "the ghost of Shor" without losing his own heart, dying as Lorkhan and the Dwemer did? Well, he would just use ANOTHER "ghost of Shor", rip THAT things heart out and be on his way. So, he summoned the Underking, removed his heart and the rest is history. After Tiber finally did die, he followed "his" Heart upward, ascending to Aetherius to become the Divine Talos.

Rest assured that many will disagree with the details of what I have just written, but at least its something, no?

I hope this helps, for I remain...


Yours in the Scroll,


___The Word Merchant of Julianos


Tiber Septim: "The Stormcrown manted by way of the fourth: the steps of the dead. Mantling and incarnation are separate roads; do not mistake this. The latter is built from the cobbles of drawn-bone destiny. The former: walk like them until they must walk like you. This is the death children bring as the Sons of Hora."

I've a question: how does Zurin Arctus fit into all this? Did he became divine too because he got his heart blown out by Wulfharth?

I think you lack Akatosh in your equation, Word Merchant.

How so, Nalion? Would you elaborate, please?


___TWM

Word Merchant, it was always my understanding that Tiber Septim achieved apotheosis by walking in the steps of Akatosh, with Arctus as his Lorkhan. Your interpretation seems to be rather that Tiber stole the mantle of Lorkhan from Arctus, if I may put it like that, leaving Akatosh out of the equation, as Nalion said.

You're only describing one side of the equation, Lorkhan, the other is Akatosh. I think some worthy questions regarding "mantling" in this case would be:
"What persons/entities did they - Tiber/Talos/Zurin etc - mantle?"
"Which previous events did they refer to or which myths did they reenact." (Walk like them and do like them to become them - mythopoeia, reenaction/retelling of mythic events)

Because I don't have much time right now, I'd just like to briefly point to the following events:

- Pelinal, Alessia, Morihaus and the creation of the First Empire of Men
- King Hrol, the hill and his offspring Reman (not to forget the shepherdess Sed-Yenna) and the (re-)creation of the Empire (Second Empire of Men)
- Talos and Zurin and the creation of the Third Empire of Men

All these share mythic similarities, in my opinion. It goes even beyond that - Anu/Padomay, Lorkhan/Akatosh and the subsequent creations, especially the creation of Nirn.
The Song of Pelinal, the Trials of St. Alessia and the Remanada should serve as the most important sources.

Thanks for the replies guys. Its a little confusing, but then Elder Scrolls lore seems to be some of the most complex fantasy stuff out there. :tops:

Muthsera,

I have always labored under the assumption that Lorkhan and Akatosh are two sides of the same coin, with walking in the steps of one necessarily meaning that one also walks in the steps of the other. I can see the merit in the above arguments, and will admit that without expressly stating the place of the "Akatosh" side of the coin, it is easy to find a gap in the theory. However, when they appear to be two aspects of the same entity, then switching their names (or adding one, for that matter) does not alter the process.

Besides, I believe (perhaps incorrectly) that Tiber would have taken Akatosh's place. The "missing" aspect of Lorkhan was filled when Tiber ascended.

But again, I know that many individuals will take issue with my position, and since some of those individuals are quite better steeped in the lore than I (*cough cough...points to Nalion), then perhaps it would be wise to consider all sides, especially before adopting mine.

___TWM

Well, we're not being very helpful, all told.

Our world is governed by a series of basic relationships between chemical substances and atomic particles. Physics, etc. All life and reality is based on variations and complex repetitions of these scientific phenomena.

Tamriel, being a fantasy world, if governed by a basic relationship between spirits and abstract magical concepts. Instead of atoms and quarks there is Anu and Padomay, and their relationship (that created the world) is called the enantiomorph (that's a real chemistry term, look it up). Since all reality is based on the relationship known as the enantiomorph, events and people that deliberately mimic it have very real power at their fingertips, as they have become close to the forces that created the universe and have become "more real." If your playacting is good enough, you can take on roles and abilities similar to beings who acted out the same patterns- in Talos' case, the gods. So Talos reenacted a scene out of divine history and wore the mantle of Akatosh.



Heresy vs. Orthodoxy plays havoc with Talos' apotheosis. Did he tear out Wulfharth's heart or Arctus'? In the former Arctus doesn't seem very important (and the Prophet of Anvil disagrees with this) in the latter, Wulfharth isn't an actor.

There are Nine gods in the Phanteon, even before Tiber Septim. Shezarr who appropriately has gone missing, was the Ninth but fell out of grace along with the Allesian Order. Shezarr was the Nordic introduction of Shor into the phanteon, though made more civilized by the clergy. It's all described in http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/shezzardivines.shtml in great detail. Though the obscure text version pre-dates Knights of the Nine by several years.

The Arcturian Heresy has it that Tiber Septim and Ysmir and avatar of Shor acted as one, keeping up the image that there was only one Tiber Septim, Storm crow conquering the world. This is the act where Ysmir and Tiber walked until they had to walk like each other.

Akatosh comes in much later. By the rebel and king anology, once Tiber had conquered all and became Emperor he could no longer be a rebel. He became a king. Lorkhan and Akatosh are connected in a similair fashion, where at the end of every battle one becomes the other. Even so I'm not doing the story justice right now.

He became a king once he appropriately betrayed his double and had his lackey tear out his soul (heart).

We already know all the Daggerfall lore about Tiber and Zurin's involvement in the creation of a mantella and the usage of the Numidium to conquer Tamriel.

What I want to know is why each of the eight Divines had their own temple during Daggerfall, but by Morrowind they've tossed in Tiber Septim as "Talos" and unified all the temples and teachings of the Divines into the Imperial Cult. What happened?

I kind of understood it in Morrowind where, Imperial cultures and religion being the minority in the area, it may be more beneficial for all worship of the Divines to remain together. Maybe Cyrodiil has some excuse as well, such as it being cleaner and more regal or something. High Rock was a relatively lawless place (at least when you consider the irrationally strict vagrancy laws and all prosttutes and HALT HALT HALT).

Morrowind's divines were represented by an Imperially chartered order of missionaries. They were a conversion business and a tool of the Empire, rather than a collection of shrines and cultural centers.

Well, I guess that makes sense given the recent opening of Vvardenfell for colonization and the fact most Imperials there come on business or political terms. But why in Oblivion? Should we just attribute it to Bethesda's laziness?

Well, they did leave out a LOT of other cults that could have been there. So, I'd say the usually suspect: Laziness, Restrains, etc, etc.

Exactly what question are you asking here?

Do you want to know why the various cults of the Nine have been retconned into one religion with a church in every town or do you want to know what happened to the hundreds of lesser gods once worshiped in the Empire?

As for the latter, I'd consider it sheer retcon. As for the former, I'd wager a guess it's more or less a political thing. The Church of Man is trying to become more Talos-centric, or even leaning towards worship of the One, which as I understand is some sort of bizarre mixture of Monotheism and Polytheism, with each of the Nine Divines being just another aspect of the One, which I assume is some sort of being or concept on the level of Judaeo-Christian God, power wise.

The whole thing with Martin's Apotheosis will probably bring Akatosh worship to the forefront, however. He may temporarily (or in the long term) become the single most worshipped being in all of Cyrodill or even the Empire.