The last thread about pre-defined Classes is a bit old, and actually I would like this thread to go in a different direction as well. So I hope it's okay if I make a new thread about this.

Classes in RPGs are supposed to define what basic type of adventurer the hero is. In games based on D&D rules, it often worked like this: You chose a class, and based on that choice, there would be a filter applied to all possible perks so that you can only gain ranks in some of them, and there would be certain skills where the gain of raising them is bigger than for other skills (+2 instead of +1). Oh and since the perk ranks have attribute requirements, your class also determined which attributes would be best for you.
Example: In Neverwinter Nights, you have the Barbarian and the Fighter. They are pretty similar, but the perks make them different - one has a Barbarian Rage, the other Combat Tactics or something like that (not too sure actually).

How did it work in Oblivion and Morrowind?

• The only major effect on your major skills was that they went up 20 levels.
  
• The effect for leveling was that only your Class skills made you go up a level.
  
• Perks were a race/birthsign thing only (or in case of Oblivion, there were a couple of skill-specific perks).
  
• Attribute modifiers on level-up where not determined by your class, but by the skills you raised.

While leveling was dependent on you increasing your class skills, the effect of leveling was dependent on all your skills. The only difference between level 1 and level 2 are the attributes increased in between. Basically... the only noteworthy effect is the boost of certain skills that gave you an easy start.

Bethesda noticed this too, and they also noticed that, while classes didn't have a huge impact on the game, they had too much of an impact for the player. The system brought exploits with it that made it possible to create an uber level 1 character by choosing skills you'll never use as major skills; also, the player is branded as a certain type of adventurer that he might not turn out to be at all.
So they got rid of them. The new system isn't exploitable anymore (unless in a different way), since every skill increase is taken into account for level-ups, so that was a very good idea.

But...

• They threw the baby out with the bath water, because now we don't have our nice selection of boosted skills at the beginning.
  
• With the new leveling system, boosted skills for a certain class actually make sense for gameplay. Not only would they start higher, they'd also contribute more to your leveling. Suddenly, there would have been a very direct link between your class and leveling up!
  
• They also removed the identity that came with the class names. No matter what skills where in a certain class, simply having "Bard" or "Spellsword" written on your character sheet gave you an identity; just like having the character be a prisoner at the beginning, it is a technique to make the player think about the background of his character, his motivations and traits.
  
• The main argument that many players created their own classes is valid. However, I wonder how many of them gave them completely new names. My custom classes were always things like "Nightblade", "Acrobat", "Agent". Because those were the classes I wanted to play; I just didn't want the major skills they picked for those classes (not because they were bad at picking good skills for those classes, but because each of my characters had a slightly different focus). It boils down to the question "why did players choose to create custom classes?", and I think the answer is mostly the bad leveling system, where picking the wrong major skills gave you a disadvantage.

Well, these are my thoughts on the new leveling system. The thing is, all the problems I just listed can be avoided without changing anything about the current game.
All it takes are... well if we go with Oblivion's classes, 21 new level-one-perks that replace the current ones, if there are any for level 1. From Acrobat to Witchhunter. And all they do is raise a selection of certain skills by a small amount... maybe 5 skills, +10 each, I don't know. It wouldn't force you to play a certain character type, and the only impact on leveling would be the same as with the skills that are increased by being a certain race. And if your character chose "Thief" and later ended up playing a sorcerer... well, that's character growth right there. Nothing's set in stone.


So this is my opinion about this. Morrowind's and Oblivion's class system was in large parts rubbish, and I'm excited to see the new leveling system. But the good parts of those old class systems could be implemented without any drawbacks at all, by using the newly implemented perk system. As for the actual purpose of classes in RPGs: That's covered by the perk system in a typical TES way. Classical RPGs filter the perk list depending on your character's class. TES games would never do that, they want you to be able to do anything. So they give you all the choices without neglecting to reward the players who decide to focus on certain perk trees.

What do you think? Should the old class system be implemented in such a way? Am I wrong in some of my assumptions? Could you imagine other ways of implementing it by using the available perk system and the new leveling system?

New system seems fine. Classes don't have the purpose people seem to think they do. It was just simple way of stamping out a character, that's all it was. Letting my character develop his idenity through the game is a welcome change.

Agreed

Maybe the text was too long. What I'm trying to say is: The perk that will makes maces ignore opponent's armor probably won't be called "Mace Perk", but something like "Maceman". The perk for making headshots with bows will maybe be called "Sharphooter". At least, that's what I'm guessing. (In Fallout 3, most perks had such a name, like "Ladykiller", "Mr Sandman", "Sniper" etc. - they were all putting you in a "class".)

If you have certain abilities, people will give you a certain name, which is basically the same thing as a class. What I'm saying is that classes don't need to be set in stone. But in my opinion, it would be cool if the perks you can choose from at first level would all be inspired by the character classes from the old games, so that you as a player have something to begin with roleplaying-wise.
And if so, then it would be cool if they could give some skills a boost, nothing more. Because it makes sense from a gameplay perspective.

Later, with all your new perks, your "class" won't be what you chose at level 1, it will be a composition of all the perks you chose. Because perks are the things that describe your character in a nutshell. (Also, of course, the factions you joined, but that's another thing.)


...and my question was whether you had a similar opinion of classes, or if classes mean something entirely different to you. And then to explain what that is, and describe how that could be implemented in the game without having to add any new features.