Scow2 I think you are basing this too much off of game mechanics. 33 percent of the population being mages is highly improbable if we look at it through the spectrum of realistic possibilities. And now you may say "but we're in a fantasy world" right but that fantasy world still works based off of economics and the social structure of the medieval world. Let's look at some logical aspects.

What do you think the literacy rate in the medieval era was and to the same extent in Tamriel? Maybe 1 percent of the population? Maybe 2 percent? And out of that you can already tell that the number of actual magic practitioners in total is very few. Because if you hope to be educated in magic, you better know how to read. Magic would be almost exclusively available to the rich, military, and the extremely talented which would be able to find a patron. Even then many of those people who had the money but not the talent would be able to cast a few minor spells before being rendered as nothing more than a book worm in a robe. Consider the fact that someone trained in the arcane for one year will be a lot less effective than someone trained with a sword in a year. I would say that per province in Tamriel the number of actually very capable mages could be counted on one, maybe two hands with the rest being capable at a handful of spells or extremely specialized. But this 33 percent business is highly improbable.

I think that might be the root of our problem. None of us can agree on just how heavily Nirn draws from the real world in terms of education, life-style, and living conditions for the comparative epoch. I would disagree heavily with you, IB, in setting Nirn too close to the real world. While I don't disagree that some of the small hamlets and villages would have a low literacy rating, I would expect the towns and cities to have a much higher literacy rating. Why? Book shops, that's why. With book shops, not only do we know that there are printing presses in Tamriel (due to the large availability of text), but also that literacy is high due to demand of the books which gives rise to the book shops.

Now, lets go back even further into the First Era. Loreth, the person (I assume he's a Mer) made the Staff of Chaos. He was trained in magick in a cave, by a hermit. From the Final Lesson that mages rarely corresponded, and the only organized mages were the Psijics. So the early mages probably didn't have access to text, and magic was based entirely around ones own ability and natural talent. So I would put forth that magic does not necessarily require literacy in Nirn, but natural ability, and the means to cultivate that natural ability. So, in that way, the Mage's Guild certainly allows for the cultivation of magical ability, but it stunts magic in general by only opening its doors to the elite (poor people can't pay guild dues).

However, we can see that the Mage's Guild (and to go even further, organization) isn't needed to become a powerful magician. But, we can also see, that it certainly helps (as was the case of Galerion under Iacheis). But literacy doesn't seem to be a requirement, but like organization, certainly helps.

Edit: Gyron Vardengroet! That was his name. Achieved immortality through Alchemy. That's pretty awesome.

If we can't draw from the games, then what source do we have? I'm not sure of any other source of Lore except from the in-game books, and the games themselves. While the worlds do suffer from serious Space Compression, I do believe the population demographics are pretty representative of the world. And almost everyone could read. Every Innkeeper offered the latest newspaper to everyone who came through there doors, implying a high enough literacy rate to take it for granted. There are also books of all genres, including fictional novels such as A Dance in Fire, The Argonian Account, and anything by Quill-Weave (Fictional novels weren't in the Real World until the mid 1800's, Frankenstien: Or, A Modern Promethius being one of the first).

Unlike the Middle Ages, despite some setbacks, the world has been ruled by a stable government for a long time. It's closer to Late Pre-Decline Roman Empire than the Middle ages, socially.

There are no schools in the games because there are no children. Same reason there are no bathrooms in the games.

The temples likely serve as educational facilities when not holding weekly worship ceremonies, the temple of Julianos especially. This is based partially on historical anecdote, where Catholic Monastaries were the primary university-equivalents. The mages guild would also likely have educational services to minors.

That is entirely correct. Remember in the Ald'Rhun Mage's Guild, at the Imperial Cult Altar there is that Dunmer there that is learning how to read.

Morrowind is destroyed last time I checked? Or at least Vvardenfell?

What does that even matter?

Because this needs to go in the lore forum, not here. Not in the fanfic section.

But they had books before the printing press. The rest is assumptions. I think Loreth is a mythical type character or at most an exception. These fall under the "talented" category. Hardly 33 percent of the population.




What I meant that you draw from the game was that you look at the 3 arch types of characters. Warrior, Thief, Mage. And from that you deducted that the general population is divided into those 3 categories. I don't think that's accurate.

Every innkeeper offered the latest news paper? Where?

Fictional stories have existed much longer than the 1800s.

But not in the quantity observed in-game. Every chapter of every Mages and Fighters Guilds both had dozens of copies of the same book, implying a high demand for them in both places. And even the poorest people had at least one or two books on a shelf or table in their houses. The only people lacking books were the Beggars. The massive number of notes also imply widespread literacy.

What were the literacy rates of citizens (Not slaves or "Freemen") in the Byzantine, Roman, and High Egyptian Empires? Those are better baselines than Medevial ages for reference of Imperial Literacy.

Actually, I didn't. I just said 33% as the remainder of a "Large Majority" being 66%. If I were going with the Archetypes, about 50% of the populous would have acccess to magic, since roughly 1/2 of each of the Stealth and Combat subtypes dip into augmenting their skills with hedge wizardry.


"Have the latest Copy of the Black Horse Courier!" Or did you not play Oblivion?

If you go solely off the game:

There are no toilets. No one has to take a piss/[censored].

There are no kids. Everyone just comes out of their mom as a grown man or mer.

We can all stand on paint brushes that float.

And Cyrodil is only 8 miles wide.

DISCLAIMER: Oblivion game mechanics do not equal lore.

It's quite amazing how this can start out as a thread about RP's, and then it gets into a literacy discussion? Really?

Actually, what you see in Oblivion is an example of Space Compression for the world. The toilets and kids are removed because they don't really contribute to the game world. There are still family units, and there are still functional accomodations. The populations themselves, as I noted, do demonstrate representative portions of Cyrodiil's demographics. Paint brushes are simply a bug.

However, to throw out all of Oblivion's game world just because of the cut corners would also mean all of the games' worlds are invalid. Which leaves us without a world at all.

Do you think that is because of some sort of thought out logical process or because of a lack of actual in game books?



The Roman Empire's literacy rate, especially in the later eastern Era was fairly high. But that would be if we want to assume the Empire in TES is that advanced.



Arch types: Mage, Thief, Warrior. Everything else is a combination of those and a "class." So if we are going by arch types it would be 33 percent. If you want to go off of game mechanics look at all of the NPCs and tell me what percentage have any magical capability. And then do a calculation on their skill level so we can see if they can even cast more than 2 or so spells. I mean if we REALLY want to get game technical here.




Yes but even more importantly...I saw a mudcrab today.

There's no real shortage of books. Though either way, that many books still says a lot of people want to read them.

Is there a reason it shouldn't be even more advanced, as it's depicted in every game?

The number I've actually been bandying about is 25% of Soldiers, which are a cut above the civilian farmers+ the like. And sometimes, just 2 spells can make a difference in someone's combat ability.

"Nasty creatures, I avoid them whenvever possible. But I hear their meat is quite tasty"
On a more serious note, it can be inferred that Mudcrabs, as an omnipresent nuicance and source of good food, could very well be a common subject of conversation. Especially considering how aggressive they can be, and the pain their claws can inflict. They are cause for concern for parents (They don't want kids playing where mudcrabs hang out, because mudcrabs can likely kill children), and similar things. What can be assumed is the conversations about mudcrabs aren't as stupid as they are depicted in-game.

Edit1: I just wanted to point out that the redguards do in fact use magic outside of the swords they form from their own souls. As a notable example, when Prince Ator was struck by Dram's poisoned arrow at the battle of Stros Mkai (spelling?), his wizard attempts to save him with restorative magic. Nafaalilargus cuts his magic short by setting Ator's ship on fire and burning everyone to death though.

Even Puny Ancus, a IC waterfront beggar, has 102 magicka. Most people in-game have a magicka around 60-70 to 100, with plenty of npcs on the 100 side of things. 102 is actually a magicka number that comes up a lot. Spark, an on-target shock spell that causes 10 damage, costs 22 magicka. So, the vast majority of people have enough magicka to cast several novice level spells in quick succession, or one to two apprentice spells in succession, or one Journeyman level spell at a time. What most people lack is training in any of the schools, though pretty much everyone, in terms of game mechanics, has a magicka pool that could suit their casting needs.

I just think that taking the game into account on technicalities takes away from the experience. To be honest the idea of everyone casting spells quite frankly bores me. It takes away from the uniqueness. "Oh what's fred doing? Oh he's just casting a spell. Go about your business." My my friend, when you see someone make fire and lightning out of nothing, it should make people [censored] bricks. Because without that rarity...TES becomes WoW, Cartoonish and silly. To me a mage in a military setting is an expensive asset that took many years to train and had to had the right talent and teacher. Not "oh hey joe shmoe take this online course for 14 months and you'll be a certified mage."

To bring us back on topic:

Not everyone casts spells, but I think there's room for both common low-level spellcasting in an army, and the wonderous use of magic by legends. Assuming 25-33% of Professional Soldiers have usable spellcasting aptitude in battle, conscripts/militia are still noncasters and make up the bulk of a deployed army with the exception of the occasional recruited neophyte (who's casting's a nonissue).

The problem with using percentile in logistics is larger armies have smaller percentages of professional soldiers than smaller ones, generally.

Assuming all Khajiit subraces are represented in Elsweyr's soldiers (Does anyone know the lunar cycles of each of Nirn's moons?), roughly 6% of every Khajiit army is made of Battlecats about the size, velocity, and power of a speeding Freight Train. A total of 12.5% are either Senche or Senche-raht. So, it's not unbelievable to think that other races have a high number of mages to accomodate the disparity in power (But, given that the Khajiit are prone to infighting, they may overall be the most powerful race in Tamriel if they pulled together).

Also, it's not The Elder Scrolls/Tamriel, but Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 supplement "Complete Warrior" offers a full chapter on Fantasy Warfare. Generally, high-magic worlds and those with supernaturally-empowered races (Such as the frighteningly accurate Bosmer archers, and the LivingMBT-birthing Khajiit) causes warfare to become a unique blend of Modern Military and Medieval tactics and strategy. I wish I hadn't disappeared after creating my Senche-Raht for that one RP that interested me (before the inactivity on these forums, coupled with distracted interest in other corners of the internet)... Then I could have demonstrated some of the advanced tactics used in The Elder Scrolls.

Of course, I believe with the general high-mobility and low durability of the Khajiit, they use the most "Advanced" tactics and strategies, deploying Flamethrowers(Maybe), grenades/firebombs, MBCs(Main Battle Cats), and HMMFPS (High-Mobility Multipurpose Four-Pawed Senche), and mixed squad units. There's a reason "Mixed Unit Tactics" is about a Khajiit/Bosmer skirmish, with the Khajiit completely pwning the enemy despite deploying a much smaller force, until getting overwhelmed by a Bosmer Zerg Rush. (I don't think Valenwood's Bosmer have a low fertility or maturation rate compared to humans, given the rate the fast-breeding, short-lived Khajiit kill them off)

Beware the Argonian Viet-Cong SEALS and Marines! Actually... I just noticed, Geographically, the further North and west-ish, the more Historically-inspired the tactics and strategies would be, with High Rock being almost identical to Medieval Europe due to the magic resistance of Bretons, toughness of Nords, and light foliage. The further South and Eastish you go they become more modern, due to the terrain becoming more treacherous and concealing (Valenwood's a thick forest. Half of Elsweyr is a Jungle, and Black Marsh is... well, a poisonous swamp), magic becomes overall more powerful (Due to Altmer presence) and subtle, the races favor stealth and subterfuge, and fast Megabeasts are common: Khajiit have their Senche and Senche-Raht soldiers, Bosmer have the Wild Hunt and the beasts of Valenwood at their disposal thanks to their "Beast Tongue" power, and who knows what horrors the Hist can deploy from the depths of Black Marsh?

Also, Khajiit and Argonians both feature area-denial strategies in their battles: Khajiit light everything on fire (Oil's abundant in the Desert), and Argonians use Chemical Warfare. I think the Khajiit tactics backfire spectacularly when facing Dunmer opponents. On the subject of Dunmer, I think their few numbers, and pretty even distribution of the three disciplines (And their racial ambivalence to the three aspects) makes them the most diverse in their strategy and tactics.

:P And 14 months is plenty of time to become a certified Magic User.