I recently started playing Morrowind again and i noticed mention that there use to be 7 great houses; now i know who the 5 current ones are and that House Dagoth is the 6th so who is the 7th?.

I have had a look around the UESP and it doesnt mention anything although it does give the impression that the Ashlander tribes are the 7th house while a few limited discussions on the net give the impression it was called House Dwemer - destroyed during the battle on Red Mountain.

Does anyone have any further information, is there anything else mentioned ingame?

Cheers

The seventh house is House Dwemer.

Ok, so is there anything ingame about them? Other than, of course, their ruined strongholds and rusty crap (which is worth a fair penny )

The cause, why the Dwemer are mentioned as a great house was because of the pact between Indoril Nerevar and Dumac Dwarvking during the First Era. The First Council was an unification of all tolerated races from Resdayn. That include the six houses of the Chimer/Dunmer and the Dwemer.

Edit: If you ever played the main quest, you had to read very much books about Nerevar and his fate. This books also describe the situation of the 7 houses.

Its been about 4-5 years since i read those documents ingame, although i am looking forward to that stage of the game; i remember the differing opinions offered and how in the end Dagoth seemed like the goodguy gone mad lol

Dagoth was the good guy. But Kagrenacs tools are/were evil and poisoned his mind and he become mad. He used the tools and became Dagoth Ur. ALMSIVI were the bad guys... the murdered Nerevear and used the tools, without loosing control of their mind. Dagoth Ur was weak and out of control when he used it, but the Tribunal knew what they are doing.

Yea thats the way i remember it; the battle is over he stays behind to watch the tools while Nerevar, like a tool, consults with the scheaming trio who then stab in the back (cant remember if that is quite literal). Dagoth then attempts to protect the tools from them but is forced into the remotes of Red Mountain - following which he comes back with a vengance, as well as going a tad loony.

I do remember being rather surprised at that plot twist when i came across it.

Voryn Dagoth guarded the tools like the loyal retained of Indoril Nerevar that he was, but in the end they drove him insane. They had wicked enchantments on them by Kagrenac.

Dagoth, Dres, Dwemer, Indoril, Hlaalu, Telvanni, Redoran

Dagoth and Dwemer are dead. Indoril and Dres are located purely on the continent, but some of Temple elites in Morrowind are Indoril, mostly, the Ordinators and the High Ordinators.

Would it be foolhardy to assume that "the Sixth House and the Tribe Unmourned" are the same House?

Yes.

No one mourns the Dwemer.

Ur finds that a distressing thing, though.

Voryn Dagoth (i.e., Dagoth Ur) is shown as being an ally of the Dwemer in some sources, such as http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/nerevar_real.shtml.

Has anyone wondered where he learned to make the Second Numidium?

I wouldn't bet too much of my money on that. From various sources, Voryn Dagoth comes out as surprisingly well informed on what the dwemer were doing. He also managed to use Kagrenac's tools to give himself a link with the Hearth in a very short time. Several sources also point that House Dagoth's role in the battle of Red Mountain was ambiguous enough to cast a doubt on which side they were (in a three-corner mess with the chimers, the dwemers, with the nords and their orc allies as the third party, each side seeming to think house Dagoth was on it's side...)

All in all, it looks suspiciously like Voryn Dagoth knew a lot about the Hearth of Lorkhan and Kagrenac's tools, manoeuvered to gets his hands on them and didn't waste time to use them as soon as he got alone with them.

I don't think the tools were enchanted to make their user mad - if you consider that Voryn Dagoth didn't know how to use them, it would be a damn weird enchantment that drive one to play with the Hearth and gives a notice on how to do it. I'd rather think he either didn't knew as much as he thought about how to use them right, or rushed things while Nerevar was out, and did a partly botched job. The Tribunal weren't in such a hurry and did better.

If Ur had had his own plan, then the disappearance of the Dwemer would seemingly be a good thing to happen from his perspective. That is, presuming he had a plan before the "dreaming."

Much of what props up his story is his loyalty to Nerevar, which casts doubt on his Dwemeri loyalties. Am I missing something in saying he may have both a disdain and a respect for the Dwemer? A respect that may have been strengthened by the "betrayal?"

Who gave the name "Tribe Unmourned" to begin with?

My friends,

Count the number of versions that one finds regarding many of the points of contested facts surrounding Red Mountain.

Usually, there are Three.

ALMSIVI remembers things differently, depending upon which aspect one asks.

This new Universe it created contradicts itself, but such is the way of the Dragon breaking.

"Every culture on Tamriel remembers the Dragon Break in some fashion; to most it is a spiritual anguish that they cannot account for. Several texts survive this timeless period, all (unsurprisingly) conflicting with each other regarding events, people, and regions: wars are mentioned in some that never happen in another, the sun changes color depending on the witness, and the gods either walk among the mortals or they don't. (http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/complete_dragonbroke.shtml)

Also, remember that Vivec warns us against trying to nail down the truth, especially when attempting to collect the myriad different renditions of those Red Mountain events. "...there can be no official art, only fixation points of complexity that will erase from the awe of the people given enough time. This is a secret that hides another. An impersonal survival is not the way of the ruling king. Embrace the art of the people and marry it and by that I mean secretly have it murdered." (http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#11)

___TWM

Hang on here. Just a correction. The Tribunal we're led to believe did not murder Nerevar. Vivec states that he did not do such a thing, and Almalexia gave no information about her murdering of Nerevar.

Also, Kagrenac's tools were not evil. It was Lorkhan's heart that possessed a corrupting effect. The tools only tapped into the source, and it was because he started to experiment with the tools that he became corrupt.

So there techinically isnt an official side since it happened/didnt happen due to the break? :S Confused me is!

Vivec admits that Vehk the mortal murdered Indoril Nerevar, both in the "hidden message" retrieved from Sermon 29 and the Trial of Vivec. However, Vehk the god did not murder Indoril Nerevar.



No, there is no official "true rendition" of the events of Red Mountain. Some events happened in one universe, and others happened in still other universes. A new universe was created when ALMSIVI ascended to godhood, and history was rewritten.

The different time lines are dependent upon Nerevar's murder to exist. The Hortator of the Sermons could not have existed without Vehk the mortal murdering the pre-apotheosis Nerevar.

Thus it was stated in http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#16: "We are graves but not coffins. Know the difference. You have only dug more and supplied no ghosts to reside within. Central to your claim is the predominance of frail events. To be judged by the earth is to sit on a throne of wonder why. Damage us more and you will find naught but the absence of our dead.'


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

He spent a great deal of time in and around the place where the first one was constructed?

Or studied under Lord Kagrenac.

I really don't think so. Thats the good thing at TES - there are always more than one opinion (ingame books). I see Dagoth Ur as a poor little Frodo, standing over the Orodruin - mountain of fate and unable to cast the ring into the fire. And his only hope - Samwise aka. Nerevar werde murdered by his friends, Aragon & Co. And so Frodo become a ringkeeper.

The same things is shown in many situations of TES. Look at the current Nightmother discussion... were she a Mephala? Is it a title? Were she a thives guild member? Everyone is allowed to build his own opinion and no one can say, how it really was, until MK write the book "Now I'm telling the truth" by Lord Vivec.