This is something that's been on my mind. The Aedric gods make a covenant with the emperors of ... the imperials, through which the Dragonfires burn and Oblivion remains shut out (What do the Aedra get our of this?) ... So, the Imperials have become a necessary component of the Mundus. Does the existence of this Emperor-Akatosh system imply that the Imperials were always meant to conquer the continent to fulfill this role? Or are the Aedra just pragmatic gods?

I thought the Imperials didn't technically "exist" until TES III or rather the apotheosis of Talos; thought the Covenant was made with Men period. From my understanding, Shor "technically" made the Covenant (recall his mythic relationship with Humankind). Thus, Aka made the Covenant "too."

Septim was prophesized and Reman was divine, but the Alessians didn't conquer Tamriel. The Covenant was a pact between the gods and their new friends who happened to control the center of the earth. The whole arrangement fortifies the status quo of men, Towers, and ancestor gods, and the Aedra have an interest in that. Umaril had the temerity to pray to Meridia in White Gold Tower, an imitation of Ada-Mantia. so he had to go. The rebellion was regime change.

It was made with Alessia (thus Cyrodiil), which included some of just about every human group. Notice that the exceptions, the Redguards, have a more merish worldview.

'Imperials' (say Cyrodils) exist whenever the racial makeup of the inhabitants reached a semi-modern mix of peoples.

I always forget about Redguards. My "vacation" from TES lore has not help me end this practice.

It's probably more accurate to say that the conquerors of Tamriel were destined to become Imperials, then?

That's probably a good way of looking at it. And this might be a way of dealing with the anti imperial race idea (that is, saying that it is dumb that they exist) The people who control the Empire are destined to become as they are. Another thing I would have to say to the aforementioned attitude, Empires rarely exist that are not driven and dominated by a central racial group, even if that group is rather small. In order for Empire to exist, there really has to be someone behind it. The 'Cyrodiils' may have once been seperate peoples (Nords and Bretons living in Cyrodiil mainly) but by the time they formed their super empire there was a race, although it may not have been realized by a lot of people until later (that is, people didn't consider them to be a separate group until after Tiber's days, Thus explaining the lack of mention in earlier texts. With this idea, their 'race' would likely be a merge of Bretons and Nords, with the people tending more toward one of the two as their get farther from the heartland.

After the rebellion, they were probably called Alessians. They were always Cyrodils, but that is a geographic term. Before Reman there were just regionalist Colovians and Nibenese. They were a race as much as the half-breed men of the Reach are. Reman's Empire instilled some national character, unified the two regions, and Cyrodil probably began to mean something more significant. The elves accused Reman of racialism, and given his imperial ambitions, this meant humans in general. During the Interregnum, they were Colovians and Nibenese again, but it referred to geography and culture. If you wanted to talk race, you said Cyro-Nordic. When Septim created a universal Empire, its rulers the world over became imperial(s).

In any case they conquered Tamriel didn't they?

Perhaps in the future there will be a new ruler.

The Imperials probably only rule most parts of Tamriel officially. In practice, in large areas of various provinces they hold almost no influence.

They conquered most of Tamriel, excluding Resdayn (Morrowind) and Volenfell (Hammerfell). Although in every province there is a significant group that does not submit to their authority - most of Black Marsh couldn't give a damn, the Ashlanders and the Telvanni don't see why they should give a damn, and the Altmer simply can't give a damn because they claim to be the ideal society.

There are also the nomads of the Alik'r and northern Elsweyr, the forest clans of Valenwood (they probably dominate the rural areas - as in, most of the province), and the glacier tribes of Skyrim. Most of northern Skyrim is rural and largely inacessible, so whether the inhabitants actually consider themselves Imperial citizens is unknown. In High Rock, there are a number of valley clans that consider themselves unconquered. From the way they are portrayed, they are in a similar position to the forest clans of Valenwood. There are also the Renrijra Krin in southern Cyrodiil, who are an insurgent group within Cyrodiil's borders.

Resdayn? Volenfell? I think you are confused with the Reman Empire. Those two names weren't used in the third, but in the second era.

They were used before Imperial involvement, so I used those names and the others. I'm sort of covering both eras. I doubt things have changed much where Imperial presence is limited.

Serjo Hyamentar,

It is always an exhuberant occasion when I find the opportunity to engage your Lordship in discourse and debate. I am glad to commune with you again and hope that your lands and trade are blessed with the abundance of tea that I know swells your heart with pride and happiness.

As for your query, I do not believe that the Dragon made a Covenant with just those who would be known as the Imperials. I will repeat the words of Akatosh to St. Alessia for our mutual convenience:

'This shall be my token to you, that so long as your blood and oath hold true, yet so shall my blood and oath be true to you. This token shall be the Amulet of Kings, and the Covenant shall be made between us, for I am the King of Spirits, and you are the Queen of Mortals. As you shall stand witness for all Mortal Flesh, so shall I stand witness for all Immortal Spirits. ... This shall also be a token to you of our joined blood and pledged faith. So long as you and your descendants shall wear the Amulet of Kings, then shall this dragonfire burn -- an eternal flame -- as a sign to all men and gods of our faithfulness. So long as the dragonfires shall burn, to you, and to all generations, I swear that my Heart's blood shall hold fast the Gates of Oblivion. So long as the Blood of the Dragon runs strong in her rulers, the glory of the Empire shall extend in unbroken years. But should the dragonfires fail, and should no heir of our joined blood wear the Amulet of Kings, then shall the Empire descend into darkness, and the Demon Lords of Misrule shall govern the land.' (http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/trials_st_alessia.shtml)

Now couple that statement with the facts that (1) St. Alessia transformed into the earth itself and (2) she is the "mother" of all mortal flesh (see http://www.imperial-library.info/tsoo/kotn01a.shtml) and we come to the conclusion that the Covenant between Al-Esh and Akatosh extends to all mortals, not just the Imperials.

Again, I hope that your days have been filled with joy, for although the Dragon might break, never shall the bonds of our alliance-in-the-Scrolls.

I remain...


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

It's an interesting topic. I like your interpretation better than the concept that "God is a Cyrodiil" (like the old saying that God is an Englishman). I wouldn't like it if Redguards and the various Mer races are standing on the sidelines, in effect.

I think there's a lot of Fate or Destiny throughout Nirn's history anyway. I get the impression it was fated that Lorkhan would start his endeavor, and we've already heard that "perhaps he failed so that mortals might know how to succeed" (to paraphrase MK's quote). It was probably fated that the Dwemer would destroy themselves in the attempt to use their souls to create a god, and destiny that the Tribunal would kill Nerevar. We already know that Nerevar was fated to return, though technically your character can refuse to think of himself/herself as really Nerever reborn. The fate of the Septims was sealed at the end of the Third Era. Well, you get the picture; if any of these events hadn't occurred, we wouldn't have a story. Not as much of one, anyway.

If God buys stock in the East India Company, He is an Englishman. I doubt the Altmer of Summerset or refugees of Imperium Saliache would acknowledge Alessia as their ambassador to heaven. In a mythic sense, Alessia does speak for all of Tamriel, but Cyrodiil has primacy. Everyone else is included against their will.

Thanks to everyone here for your replies to this.

So, taken that a Covenant is a promise, and that promises are reciprocal, this promise was not fortified or accepted as paws says, by the majority of races, then it is still a promise?

Was the Covenant muted when the Tribunal came to be? If the Covenant had any blanket metaphysical properties, it didn't stop the several Dragon Breaks. The "Mother of the Earth" certainly made her voice known to speak such a promise for the generations to come, but it is still very much a Cyro-Nordic thing, considering they are, presumably the only two races spiritually inclined to direct their hearts and minds to it, and politically inclined to preach it. Even Redguards are said to have merish tendencies, and I presume the beast races do too. How can the majority of peoples be agents to a promise they innately do not agree with? This being so, it is longer a Covenant, it seems a subjugation.

Akatosh is the King of Spirits, but do we perceive his rule of the aedric powers to be of an imperial, dominating kind? Certainly not like the Daedric way of doing things, which is like that. Or do we not know enough? Why then are his mortal counterparts, the Cyrodiilic emperors like so, why have many of them been passionate and villainous, others noble and worthy? The Empire was invaded, and then failed in it's own invasion of the snake people. The question is obvious, if Al-Esh made a promise of reciprocation between Heaven and Earth, with the Cyrodiils and their White-Gold at the center of it, then why don't the Cyrodiils enjoy a level of supremacy on Mundus as Aka does in his own domain?

And pardon these initiate questions, I am sure certainly not befitting a patriarch, but hey.

The Tribunal, despite all their follower's protests to the contrary represent a very Aedric Ideal. First, the Tribunal's power was made possible through Lorkhan's power, which was bound up and sustained into something that can be an Earthbone. Second, the Tribunal was established more as a revolt away from the Daedra worship of the past than accepting or revolting away from any western influences.

You have to recall that Morrowind was largely culturally isolated until, oh, the Armistice. Any human or elven concepts that were developed after the Chimer settled Morrowind wouldn't have been transmitted. It has Black Marsh to the south which what little culture and ideas is contained within its borders does not try to travel outside. Then it has Skyrim to the Northwest, whose culture (and armies) has tried to conquer Morrowind a number of times, so the Dunmer would resist any ideas transmitted via Skyrim. Finally, it has Cyrodiil to the southwest and it never was interested in Morrowind until Reman's 80 year war. Actually, we don't know how much the Ayleids and Chimer interacted, but that's not relevant to the discussion.

the covenant? (looks around anxiously for his shotgun) let me at em!!!

heh wait wrong game..... everyone knows Khajiits are destined to rule tamriel we use skooma to get you guys hooked then we take over with all our skooma profits .....a guy can dream..

One thing to keep in mind is that whatever the original deal/pact/covenant/whatever between Alessia and Akatosh might have been, some parts might have been altered later. The Marukhati Selectives did some rather heavy-duty mythical rewriting which has potentially altered a lot of things. The 'cyrodill pact shall be enforced on all nirn' aspect might come from that period.

Another possibility might be that Akatosh was dissapointed enough with the elves (the altmers trying to keep things the way they were before Lorkhan's rebellion, the Aylied seemingly being more intereted in those aedras who left mundus, the chimers turning to the daedras) that he left the on the side and focused on the humans.

I get the feeling that Akatosh is not a reigning monarch so much as he is First Among Equals. Also, sometimes the Aedra don't seem as self-aware and free as mortals are. It's almost as if they're pure Destruction, pure Love, pure Knowledge, and so on, but in a zen-like state of action without reflection. Or like animals that live their lives without self-reflection. You can't picture Mehrunes Dagon saying to himself "I am defeated every time I go against mortals, so maybe I should change my tactics or know myself better."

But then again, I'm probably off base here.