Since the Tribunal are basically dead, (we dont know about Vivec. Maybe he will be in ES5?), would that mean that the religion is pretty much history now?

I would assume that many would deny the death's of there 'gods' and that Amalexia was as pure as ever.

Many did and still do. But from Oblivion rumors we can surmise that the temple apparatus has begun to collapse. Indoril is now completely ruined, which is another indication.

Rational thought would suggest that the Temple would continue to have power for quite some time and that at the very least, the Tribunal would continue to be worshiped as deities in some form (though perhaps to a smaller scale). Three-thousand year old religions don't die overnight; that belief system is ingrained in their society from the upper classes down to the commoners and really, there's no proof that the Tribunal are dead/gone/whatever, since apart from the high priests nobody ever sees them anyway (note how Helseth is almost the only person in Morrowind that will believe you when you say you killed Almalexia). I personally attribute the rumors in Oblivion to the sensationalism that follows any rumor once its spread around, especially when its had time to spread and grow all the way from Morrowind.

Honestly (though I don't think it would happen), the Archcanons could continue to run the Temple fairly easily.

Its still gonna go for a while. Will it last? Only time will tell. Eventually I would think it would die down and the Empire will completely take over.

That is, if the Empire lasts long enough. Even with the implication from the novels that we've got a new Emperor, it doesn't mean that it will be stable.

Or how much that empire will encompass...

Vivec did make a big deal about reorganising the Temple so it could continue without the Tribunal. It's also what the Dissident Priests planned to do the whole time.

However the Oblivion Crisis quite likely shook up the Temple enormously, as it can't have been so long as for the Dunmer to have completely reassembled their faith. In the past, the Tribunal have always been there to fight off Daedra attacks, this time they were not.

The Temple would probably still be in power for at least some time.
Do many people even know that Almalexia and Sotha Sil are dead?
Perhaps some will decide to go worship Nerevar instead...

Also, the player is the only one (other than probably Helseth) who knows that Sotha Sil is dead, let alone that he was murdered. You're the only one alive who has ever been in the Clockwork City. You're also the only one who really knows what Almalexia was like, and how she died; for everyone else, it's hearsay.

Prayers to Vivec and the Nerevarine went unanswered during siege of Ald'rhun, not prayers to Almsivi and the Nerevarine. They know the two are dead now, as well as misunderstanding what happened at Hogithum Hall.

I get the feeling more and more Dunmer will be praying to Akatosh at some point in the near future.

Dunmer, as I intepret them, have a "money talks, BS walks" sort of persona. They want action - a god who can set a physical example of violence for them to follow. Vivec and the Nerevarine didn't answer any prayers, but the big bad dragon sent one of the Bad Daedra back to hell single handedly. That's the kind of deity I can imagine a lot of dissatisfied and jaded Dunmer can get behind.

But the Tribunal didn't come to godhood through violence... They came to godhood through the grace of extraordinary acts of charity, questing, virtue, knowledge, testing, and battling with Evil, to which the Good Daedra, the prophet Veloth, and Saint Nerevar then had a committee on whether to raise them up as ALMSIVI. Or that's what most Dunmer believed for around 3000 years, and most presumably, are still inclined.

That seems true. I wonder how much influence the dissident priests have gained since the Nerevarine visited them. Maybe they're still reclusive?

Muthsera,

I would say that the Tribunal did, in fact, originate as set forth in the http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml, irregardless of what happened in that other, pre-Dragon Break/Red Mountain eruption universe.

We know that Vehk-the-mortal became a god, and then the god became a mortal. How very, very perfect. I would point you, my fellows, to compare the following texts:



Now please read on...

"This is clearly attested by ANU and his double, which love knows never really happened." (http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#35)

Then...

"The fall of Red Tower should not be seen as the suave conquest of Cyrodiil's agencies, for we have been tricked again by the Dagonites. Though through long eras the chimerical landgods have subverted Divine rule, their protection of the First Stone should have remained as it was: the ironic protection of our enemies to our Enemy." (http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/nu-hatta_nu-mantia.shtml#3)


And finally...

"The Tower touches all the mantles of Heaven, brother-noviates, and by its apex one can be as he will. More: be as he was and yet changed for all else on that path for those that walk after. This is the third key of Nu-mantia and the secret of how mortals become makers, and makers back to mortals. The Bones of the Wheel need their flesh, and that is mankind's heirloom. ... Oath-breakers beware, for their traitors run through the nymic-paths, runner dogs of prolix gods. ... Whereby the words of Lord Dagon instructs us to destroy these faithless." (http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/mythic_dawn_commentaries.shtml#3)

I believe, my friends, that there is more to the Tribunal than we were originally led to believe.



Yours in the Scrolls,


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

An interesting postulation, Word Merchant. There's certainly no denying that when it comes to the Tribunal, chiefly Vivec (AKA: The Thief, if I'm not mistaken?), and the combined numbers of the et'Ada, there are a number of complexities and nuances to be taken into account.

On the other hand, I'd say that the people of Tamriel, much like a great many people on this forum, are only vaguely aware of many of these concepts, much less fully versed in what they mean. And in the end, these grandiose concepts didn't do much to help either Dagoth Ur or Almalexia against the Nerevarine. The other members of the Tribunal didn't seem to fair much better, either against Almalexia herself or the forces of Dagon who supposedly 'kidnapped' Vivec, if the rumours in Oblivion are to be believed.

In the end, for all Vivec's over the top bluster, he was conveniently missing when the Dunmer people needed his help, but the Imperials' favourite cuddly Dragon God of Time came swooping in and banished him some Daedric ass. As such, I think that the Tribunal will probably be phased out sometime soon in favour of the Nine Divines, especially with the Imperial aligned Helseth at the reigns.

Although one must find it bewildering that the Dissident priests, who deny the divinity of the Tribunal, know that their only source of power was destroyed, and believe them to be irrevocably corrupted, can't accept that you killed Almalexia. Similarly with the Blades, and a few other notables.

I always blamed that on being a gameplay issue, rather than a story one, but it is rather obvious in it's absence.

Dagoth & Almalexia where quite insane, at least from the mortal perspective, their failures where in their overconfidence and underestimating the Nerevarine - concepts aside. Also, Vivec was too busy being put on trial to be kidnapped by Daedra...

Why in favor of the Nine Divines. Apart from a few crummy chapels (of the Imperial Cult, not the Nine Divines religion proper) are its only influence on the province, and while Helseth might claim following of the Imperial Cult I highly doubt its for more than appearances sake, he's in an Imperial position so naturally he's going to say he believes in the Imperial gods. Regardless, he's not a religious leader nor does he seem to have a religious agenda, that along with the Dunmer having no history of Aedric worship suggests that the most likely option is for them to return to the worship of the Daedra directly, along with keeping their saints and setting the Tribunal up at some level of deity (afterall, other provinces have folks in their pantheon that have done alot less than the Tribunal)...

Serjo Darknova50,

JHUNAL's grace be upon any who would question, my friend, so bathe now in His Glory, for it is showering upon you.

I would point you, my trusted companion, to compare your statement above to the fact that Lorkhan/Shezarr/Shor also "went missing" went his people needed him the most. "Walk like them until..."


Hold steady the shield...


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

Because I think that the existence of the Tribunal itself was a large factor in keeping the Imperial religion at the periphery in Morrowind. Even then, though, it had a presence. With the current state of affairs in Morrowind (Sotha Sil and Almalexia 'dead,' and Vivec missing) and with Akatosh making a grand appearance in the Imperial City, ending the Oblivion Crisis, I think it would lend serious credence for the Nine Divines in the eyes of the Dunmer, and many other groups across Tamriel.



...you just blew my mind.

What's also interesting is that, if Vivec is mantling Lorkhan as you're proposing, it was Lorkhan's heart that granted Vehk and the other members of the Tribunal divinity in the first place. Is it possible that Vehk is trying to regain, or even expand upon, the powers that he had while linked with Lorkhan's heart?

Putting that notion aside for a moment, let me pose one question. If Vehk is attempting to mantle the Space God, Lorkhan, who exists as part of a dichotomy with the Time God, Akatosh, then who is the Akatosh to Vehk's Lorkhan? The only possible answers that strike me at the moment are either Tosh'Raka of Akavir, or perhaps the Nerevarine. (Or maybe the Nerevarine is Auriel, with Azura playing the role of Akatosh? Can one et'Ada mantle another?)

But I think I'm rambling at this point... Regardless, your insights are as intriguing as ever, Word Merchant.

As I said, the Imperial Cult is hardly an influence and there's no strong leader in Morrowind who would care enough about religion to try and change it. Besides that, I think you underestimate just how much of an indoctrination and how ingrained religion is - people don't just up and change beliefs that they've carried all their lives, especially when they have no proof of their god's absence and Akatosh appeared a thousand miles away. Surely they'd ask themselves, if he was such a great guy, why didn't he help out the Dunmer instead of just his pet Imperials??? If he's such a powerful god surely he could appear for more than 30 seconds at a time, especially when the folks the Dunmer currently worship, the Tribunal and the Daedra before them, made a habit of constantly showing themselves. Having gods that are among the people is a big thing for Dunmer, it was one of the main platforms that the Tribunal came to rise in popularity over, so why bother with Aedra who show themselves once a millenia...


Also, Vivec got CHIM, why would he bother with Lorkhan??? Lorkhan failed at CHIM (intentional or not)... that's like trying to cheat off the stupid kid in class after you've already been named Valedictorian....

Maybe the religion will shift from worshiping the Tribunal to worshiping the Nerevarine and cause open fighting amongst different beliefs.

My shield-thane,

I am, and always have been, quite fond of ramblers. I consider myself one as well. Please continue...



Muthsera (yeah, I said it again... :frog: ),

Lorkhan failed to show us how not to. Are we to think that Vivec such a poor student? Is not the http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml a demonstration of what Tamriel's true purpose was? And does said letter not derive from http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#35?

I have taken great stock in the comparison of the following lines:

1. "The birth of God from the netchiman's wife is the abortion of kindness from love." (http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#23

2. "This is the love of God and he would show you more: predatory but at the same time instrumental to the will of critical harvest, a scenario by which one becomes as he is, of male and female, the magic hermaphrodite." (http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#35)

3. "...and you begin to see the Lunar God's failure as Greatest Gift. As above, "This is the love of God." ... God is loveGod is Love." (http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml)

4. "'For I have crushed a world with my left hand,' he will say, 'but in my right hand is how it could have won against me. Love is under my will only.'" ((http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#1)

I apologize for so sloppily presenting various and far-flung quotations numerically instead of putting them together in a cohesive argument, however the [RL] is actively taking me, so until I can write further, I remain...


___The Word Merchant of Julianos


ps: Notice that Shor/Shezarrr/Lorkhan ... then Hjalti/Arcuts/Wulfharth ... and Ayem/Seht/Vehk all come in threes?

Amen

Listen to him fellow lore-seekers, he told you almost exactly what I wanted to say, but in far more fanciful way .
I am lazy and I try to express myself blunty when I communicate in foreign togue.

Vivec is a good student, that's why he didn't fail, but you're talking about mantling. Taking a role in the enantiomorph would be manteling, CHIM is a different path which requires different means (one in which imitating Lorkhan would be counterproductive).

One is three different names for one individual, the second deals with the enantiomorph which naturally blurs lines and the third are neither of the two. Not to mention that you conveniently make the first one three by leaving out Lorkhaj and Sep (and the same logic can probably be applied to the second).



Also, its not really correct to say that Lorkhan went missing when his people needed him most. Lorkhan led his people, lost the battle and got dismembered, I don't really count that as 'going missing'... He might be the "missing god", but that's for other reasons entirely with little mythic significance...

I think Word Merchant just did that to help explicate the whole trinitarian idea of apotheosis, i.e. two making (another) one.

Of course I totally understand what your saying, but I don't know if TWM didn't realize what he was doing.