Well, no-one's medieval in Fallout as far as we've seen. People still have their conventional weapons, and energy weapons are still in circulation. Things like this aren't that amazingly important to the BoS after a while, their real interest is in securing machines, places of technological interest etc. Handheld weapons aren't the mainstay of their objective.

Well, some may have found it amusing, but honestly why would they care? As long as they got what they wanted from it. They're not forcing anyone down there. Hell they didn't even let their own go there, the only reason Sergeant Dennis Allen went there was because he took some tech with him and went AWOL, much like the Outcasts did infact. Besides it was probably more of a deterant than an actual trial, it just so happens the Vault Dweller pulled it off, to their great disbelief and surprise, but in the end everyone got what they wanted.


Dude, nuclear warheads went boom, tech destroyed the world Greed may have been a catalyst, but greed didn't materialise in nuclear form and purge the world in flames, it's metaphorical at best. The route the world of Fallout went down, greed or not, something had to give sometime, they were setting themselves up for that at the very least.

Inasmuch as anyone actually bothers to make things (instead of just scavving), the base tech level seems to be somewhere around medieval, IMO. It's hard to judge because it's such a mishmash. The latest I'd set it would be the 1800s, what with the Wild West flavor - but even then, they aren't actually making new brass in Adytum, just refilling the old casings and casting new bullets, which is a Renaissance or Colonial thing. (Seems to me that black powder rounds in a modern gun would mess it up real fast, but that's another issue.) On the other hand, there's lots of gaps and forgotten knowledge (like crop rotation) that you don't get with a naturally-developed infrastructure. And there's lots of tribals out there living in, essentially, a new Iron Age.

None of this addresses the problem I mentioned, where strangers who have not been laboring under the same restrictions you impose on the locals "for the greater good" arrive with a Bigger Stick. All you've done, in the long run, is cultivate a nice population of serfs for the conquerors.

I don't think that's got alot to do with the BoS interfering with natural progression though, Vault City is alot more advanced because they had a G.E.C.K and they pretty much took apart their Vault and used the salvage to build perimeter turrets and the like, Vault education probably had alot to do with those possibilities also. The people in the wastes don't have the equipment or the knowhow to accomplish the same.

That's not really any concern of the BoS, though. They were essentially, xenophobic and elitist, because they could be, they had the power armour, they had the military training and survival expertise, and they also had the education, the only thing they needed from the local populous was a means to do their bidding, or visa versa, so both parties got something they want. The BoS don't have any affinity for civilisation and its post-apocalyptic troubles. The only civilisation the BoS would want to realise as I see it, would be one built by them, with their teachings and values, to prevent past mistakes and start anew. Whether this is the right or wrong belief system to adopt is irrelevant, they believe in what they're doing.

That's the foundation for a monastic order (which the BoS is), though, not a real civilization, IMO. That takes them in the "increasingly irrelevant" direction I mentioned before... assuming your monastery isn't sacked or "nationalized" (see the Templars).

If they're interventionalist "tech stealers" and "oppressors", they make themselves a target of resentment and anger. If they're isolationist hoarders, they make themselves a target of envy and greed. Or, like Lyons, they could stop looking down on the peasants, rejoin civilization and actually start helping...

I'm guessing from their militant background, they believe the tech already belongs to them, and they are just reclaiming what is theirs, or what they feel they are responsible for. What people of the outside know of the BoS is very little (from a Core Region perspective at least), irronically, the only side of the BoS civilisation is more familiar with, is the side that has chosen to embrace it. And whilst these aren't considered pure BoS in terms of ideals, it's good PR nonetheless.

Eh, the Brotherhood has never struck me as innovative in that regard, though. Course, a lot of it could be due to simple lack of industrial infrastructure. But the Brotherhood isn't exactly cranking out new models of Power Armor like the Enclave (MWBOS' Power Armor is semi-canon at this point), otherwise Lyons and his group would have still had their standard Brotherhood issue T-51bs, instead of making due with even older T-45ds (Most in pretty shoddy condition to boot - somebody needs to light a fire under the Order of the Shield).

About the only thing the Brotherhood has really created is computer mainframes and software. I can't recall if A.C.E. is a pre-war relic off the top of my head, but the Brotherhood did install the mainframe in Vault 13. Which, as an aside, really breaks the lore of that game completely in half. We're supposed to believe half the Vault residents left with the Vault Dweller to form Arroyo (And went so completely native over the course of a single generation), and the other half overthrew the Overseer, managed to contact the Brotherhood, get a mainframe put in (For generic, unknown reasons. It's not like the Overseer did anything absolutely vital to the survival of the Vault), and then proceed to shut themselves back up instead of taking one of their G.E.C.K.s and starting a new community. At least Vault 101's excursion and then isolation made sense, with Vault 13 they managed to locate the Brotherhood (no easy feat) yet Vault 13 is still considered a legend by the majority of Wastelanders.

But I'm getting off topic. The point is the Brotherhood in the three primary Canonical Games (Fallout, Fallout 2, and Fallout 3) haven't been shown to create anything. Hell, they barely augment their equipment as it is. The Metal Blaster you get from The Pitt would be a fantastic addition to the Brotherhood arsenal, and from the sounds of things a ignorant Wastelander was the one who modified it. You can't tell me the Order of the Sword wouldn't be able to replicate that design, or at least come up with it independently.


No, the Brotherhood's primary MO has been Collect, Study, Catalog, Store, and Use. They're not that innovative a bunch.

In the Lost Hills bunker you can ask Vree about the "weapons we make here" to which she will respond "Speak to the knights. ask them to show you one of the lastest laser pistols I designed" It is likely that most, if not all of the Brotherhood weapons and ammo are made, rather than salvaged. Power Armour is a little different, for one it's an extremely high tech piece of equipment, as far as the Brotherhood are concerned, this is the pinacle of military achievement, before they knew of the Enclave they had no basis for comparison. The shoddy condition seems to be a developer choice, as any and all NPC equipment in Fallout 3 is falling apart it seems.

A.C.E is pre-war. There is no evidence that the Brotherhood installed the supercomputer, only that it was purchased from them. Some left with the Vault Dweller, others stayed, the cause of the uprise was the discovery of the experiments, which sparked the execution/overthrowing of the Overseer. The mainframe was then put in inplace of a new overseer, this isn't so irrelevant and your opinion of the Overseer's responsibilities (or lack thereof) is conjecture at best. The fact that they stayed in the Vault instead of going with the Vault Dweller shows they had no desire to leave the Vault, G.E.C.K or not. The local populous knew of Lost Hills, there was a trade route that led there for one, finding Lost Hills would have been no more difficult than it was for the Vault Dweller himself. Whether the Brotherhood knew the location of the Vault 13 or not didn't matter, they wouldn't share that information freely, assuming they delivered it, which is unknown.

The flipside of those events is that the supercomputer was installed by the Enclave after they gave the residents of the Vault the all clear then rounded them up for F.E.V experimentation at the Oil Rig and then placed the Deathclaws there to foreshadow their activities at Vault 13. They wouldn't have left a big sticker saying "property of the Enclave" on the side of it, information that it was purchased from the Brotherhood could be nomore than another foreshadowing. Jimmy only knows what he knows from what the terminals have told him, afterall. So all information is second hand. The truth of this scenario (at least the part about the supercomputer, as the rest is true) is just as unknown as the previous, as there is no first hand evidence of either.

The BoS were actively working on equipment in Lost Hills in FO1 as evidenced by Vree and the knights on the 3rd floor of the bunker. In FO2 Lost Hills was south of the world map and didn't exsist in-game, BoS amounted to no more than scouts in this instance. So I refer to my previous statement.

But that shouldn't have stopped them from improving upon the basic design of Power Armor. I know that we're getting deep into the Brotherhood's quasi-Religious beliefs here, but even if they were making Laser Pistols of slightly different designs, they weren't nearly as significant changes as what one Wastelander with a Prism managed to do.




Dzzzt. Jimmy specifically states it was purchased and installed by the Brotherhood of Steel.



No, it isn't. Straight from the Overseer's mouth from Fallout 1 if you ask him why the residents can't just leave the Vault:

"Well, for one thing I'd be out of a job. I can't do anything - I'm Management!"

Even in Fallout 3, the Overseer is seen as the Mayor/King/whatever and his office in both Fallout 1 and Fallout 3 doesn't seem to be directly linked to any sort of vital systems or responsibilities. Yet in Fallout 2, we're lead to believe that the Super Computer that replaced the Overseer was responsible for a myriad of tasks including the allowance of food.

So, in essence, the dwellers of Vault 13 overthrew a Human Administrator who was generally wasting oxygen (As he did little of any real importance - BY HIS OWN ADMISSION) and replaced this Human Administrator with a computer system that ruled their lives with a electronic fist. And then, when the Enclave sent the All Clear Signal, then the remaining Dwellers decide it's time to leave, instead of just leaving when they went out to find the Brotherhood.

I didn't mean for that little aside to spark it's own discussion. I was merely pointing out the computer system was of Brotherhood origin, yet how the whole senario was just a Plot Convenience to the Main Plot.



Yet they were perfectly happy to leave the Vault when the All Clear sounded (This is, also, after they knew they weren't supposed to leave for 200 years). Again, it was just a little aside, and it really can't be rationally defended because the way the story and explaination is structure, it makes no rational sense.



Given the size of the Mainframe, I think it's safe to assume the Brotherhood did deliver and assemble it onsite, as no caravan no matter how many Brahmin, could move the whole structure in one piece to Vault 13 (And that's not even mentioning how they were going to fit the thing in the Elevators). Also I don't see the Brotherhood, with their obsession with technology, trusting valuable computer parts to some backwoods Wasteland Caravan.



Which makes even less sense then the Brotherhood installing the thing. Once the residents of Vault 13 (Save the Shrine Keeper, oddly enough. You can't even ask him why he wasn't rounded up with the rest of them) were secured, putting the Deathclaws at Vault 13 was merely a way of keeping people away from Vault 13. Why would the Enclave want to ensure the Vault still functioned really?



Working on equipment that was essentially the same to the old equipment. I don't deny that the Brotherhood has been mass producing Laser Weaponry (As Operation: Anchorage suggests even in early October 2077, Laser weaponry hadn't been widely available yet), but they haven't moved on from Laser Weaponry and T-51b Power Armor in the past hundred plus years. That shows signs of technological stagnation for the group who's primary duty is the acquisition of technology.

There's no reason to say anything stopped them. Rather that they weren't there yet, or their efforts were directed towards other project, even I don't have a copy of their daily agenda.

Nuuu Jimmy says it was installed by the leaders of the revolution, and purchased from the Brotherhood. Trust me on this, or see for yourself.

Nothing the V13 overseer said can be trusted, he was trying to hide thr truth from the Vault Dweller as much as from anyone else. He was adhering to the experiment, that's the reason why he wouldn't let anyone leave, he wasn't prepared to tell the Vault Dweller and essentially bury himself. It's also evident that the Vaults in D.C are of different design to the ones in the Core Region. There is also no evidence that the computer 'ruled' over anyone, and I think that was the whole point installing it in the first place (assuming the original V13 residents acquisitioned its installation).

They were happy to leave upon the all clear because that's what they've been waiting for. The all clear overrides any Vault lockdown procedures.

The mainframe was substantially large yes, though whether it was the Brotherhood or not, a caravan service would have likely need to be implemented. And yes they would have had a natural affinity towards ts safe arrival. They would have insisted on escorting it if only for that reason.

The deathclaws were stationed to keep people out, but also to foreshadow the Enclave's activities, so people assumed the deathclaws slaughtered everyone and moved in, the mistake the Enclave made was in underestimating the intelligence of the deathclaws. Gordon, the shrine-keeper, left the Vault to go see the statue of the Vault Dweller in NCR, the Enclave had came and gone upon Gordon's return. The mainframe could have been stationed there to monitor the Vault itself, possibly to implement a future station for Enclave opertations. The supercomputer belonging to the Enclave stands up alot better than if the residents of the Vault purchased a supercomputer from the Brotherhood, but that is upto personal belief. My common sense tells me it was the Enclave, they would have been able to move it in with relative ease and efficiency aswell.

Again I cannot vouch for the daily agenda of the Brotherhood. But they claim to make weapons, the scope of this claim is unknown to me.

WTF OMFG-ZORZ FALLOUTCHRIS DOESNT KNOW THE BOS'S AGENDA?!

Its

Wake up
Eat breakfest
Go pwn
Have lunch
pwn some more
????
Profit

Anyway why wouldn't the enclave also help collect technology, i think they have been moving on with tech, because of the fact they have plasma weapons up the wazzo and i remember one BOS saying Lucky, they have plasma weapons! and only a few BOS i have seen have had them, those where from downed enclave so i do think that there isn't any tech. stagnation.

The aside is threatening to derail the thread, so I'm just going to agree to disagree there. Not that you haven't raised excellent points, but because the state and nature of Vault 13 in Fallout 2 really has no bearing on the Brotherhood at large.



Perhaps, but I think it was the Religious aspects of the Brotherhood that leads us to the natural conclusion that they're a stagnating organization - at least the West Coast branch. The East Coast branch really has no other option then to use broken down T-45ds (Though the Lasers could very well be West Coast models), and with their manpower divided thanks to the schism with the Outcasts they can't actively create new armors like the Midwest branch can (Also the fact most of their research is being drained into the Citadel).

I still maintain something happened to the West Coast Brotherhood. Or it could be nothing more sinister then getting a Maxson to the East Coast so Bethesda doesn't have to step on or directly contradict anything from the previous Fallouts. But given how both the Midwestern branch (Which, even if their armor is quasi-canon, they themselves are not - they're mentioned in dialogue in Fallout 3) and Eastern branch have turned into central organizations for change and stability, I suspect the Western Brotherhood either just became obsolete thanks to the NCR, or they turned into the Steel Plague.

The Enclave want nothing to do with the BOS, or anyone else for that matter - unless it involves their death.

They're just like that.

yeah, im saying I believe the enclave is researching new weapons because they have plasma weapons and that the bos said, damn they have plasma weapons, at one point i forget when and that implies that the only ones they have gotten where off the dead enclave.

The Enclave's been researching and developing new technologies. The Advanced Power Armor Mark II and Plasma based weaponry are technologies developed after the Great War, seeing as how the T-51b Power Armor was brand spanking new in October of 2077.

To be exact, the FO3 plasma weapons are Enclave's post-war developments, but there were plasma weapons before the War as well, like FO1's Glock 86 and Winchester P94.

thanks for that info man