-Spoilers Ahead-

Ok, so at the end of Oblivion's Thieves Guild faction you see Corvus (Gray Fox) say something like "I hereby pronounce Emmor Dereloth the true thief of Nocturnal's Cowl"

But lore says "They shall be known by the cowl and only by the cowl...etc"

So, how did Corvus know that Emmor Dereloth was the first Gray Fox if Emmor ceased to exist (so to speak) when he stole the cowl?

Same way you knew it was Corvus.

We learned it was Corvus though because he broke the curse, Emmor didn't.

He broke the curse for our cowl too, so I suppose Emmor was grandfathered in.

Yes, I know...Excuse me for the stupid question I'm about to ask:



What does that mean?

So the removal of the curse applied to him to.

But he said Emmor's name as he was removing the curse, so shouldn't he not know it until the curse was removed? But the curse can't be removed without him saying the whole "I hereby pronounce Emmor Dereloth the true thief of Nocturnal's Cowl" and doing the spell thing...Confusing...

Eh, I dunno. I don't even remember him ever saying it. But it is Oblivion.

Maybe the Cowl doesn't cause the person wearing it to have the "previous" histories erased?

Hey, it changed history and resurrected the TG HQ, maybe the effect of the curse breaker also broke the curse in the past as well as for the present and future, retrospectively breaking the curse and allowing Corvus to say Emer's name in the few seconds before the curse was broken.

:mellow: Um...What?

Its simple. The curse is broken across all time, not just for the future, as the past is altered. This means that the curse is already broken when Corvus speaks Emer's name.

Wait, so what you're saying is that by the time the saying of Emmer/Emmor took place, the curse had already begun lifting? Or is it just that the Gray Fox would know who the Gray Fox is regardless? Or is the first thing I thought of when I read your statement is correct, and that when someone is lifting the curse, then the curse was lifted in the past, having eliminated any need to lift it :ahhh:

How should I know, I'm making this up as I go along.

Here it is in a nutshell. Corvus didn't know Emmor's name just like anyone else so he couldn't lift the curse. That's why he gets you to get the elder scroll. He arranged for that person to get the one that prophesized (spelling?) Emmor stealing from Nocturnal and it already came true so anyone could read it. So he wouldn't forget Emmors name he probably wrote it on his palm which is why he held his palm out when he talked. That's my full guess.

The curse was broken through paradox. The curse stated that the true identity of the thief would be stricken from history. No being would know him aside from wearing the cowl and being known as the Gray Fox. Corvus accessed the one immutable record of history that could not be changed by any silly Daedra curse: the Elder Scrolls. Corvus then read from the scroll about who really stole the Cowl, a feat that by the standards of the curse, could not happen. Corvus broke the bounds of the curse and (in programming parlance) caused the curse to crash. An exception in the curse was created, making the wielder of the Cowl able to take off the cowl and still be known. Under the previous bounds of the curse, if someone took off the cowl, people wouldn't know who he was. They'd think that he was 'A Stranger'. They wouldn't know who he was at all. But now, you take it off and people know who you are.

Now, as for why the new exception to the curse reached beyond just Corvus is a little less concrete, however, I'll give you my interpretation. Due to the nature of Nocturnal's curse and how quickly it was formed and created, Nocturnal probably was angry and incensed at how a mortal had managed to audaciously stolen something of hers and so hastily cast the curse without a whole lot of clauses and such. Because it was broad and sweeping, it applied to everyone, so when one exception was created and two people knew Dareloth's identity, the curse had to adjust and then it applied to everyone, everywhen. The Gray Fox was then given the leverage to take off his mask and not be identified and hunted by the guards, but still be recognized by those of whom he was trying to deal with. This gave him the leverage to build himself a Thieves Guild.

Finally, and a little tangential, this whole paradox/curse lifting thing retroactively creating the Thieves Guild gives room for the theory that the events of Oblivion took place in a subtle variation of how history really itself played out in Daggerfall (but not maybe not Morrowind). Because in Daggerfall there was a Thieves' Guild that existed and quite well established despite our one book on the subject (from Oblivion) that said such a thing never existed. It does talk about Gentleman Jim Stacey, so we don't know about Morrowind. However, given that it doesn't explain anything and that it doesn't then give room for any interesting interpretations aside from a neat little dead-end thought experiment, the theory is bunk through Occam's Razor (as if that ever applies to the ES universe).

Wow, MD, how did you get all that figured out?

I took what the properties of the curse was and the effects of when it was broken and filled in the rest. Also, I was just as confused about how everything worked out at the end too, so had to spend a little bit of time figuring it out.

Or in the Wicked Witch of the West's words: "Lot's and lot's of practice!"

Oblivion: The Greatest Inconsistency

I think the curse was crumbling before Corvus spoke Emer's name. Remember, Millona states "he looks familiar" in reference to The Stranger, right before he dons the Gray Cowl and breaks the curse, thereby shattering the curse completely.

I all need this info for my upcoming mod but it's all so confusing.. just like the whole Jyggalag/Sheogorath thing... why can't Bethesda make easy-to-understand lore xD