I know that the border's were recently changed and that's how they got it accepted that the city of Sutch wasn't in OB. But when were the borders changed? And why?

The borders were changed? The absence of Sutch got accepted?

1. The borders don't look changed to me.

2. According to Thief of Virtue a city named Sutch is located in Hammerfel.

3. I don't give a damn. I used to be nothing but a dot on a map. I can't speak for anybody else though.

It looks pretty much the same as Arena...

Well, the borders did change with the annexation of Leyawiin from Elsewyr (which was a logical move since Leyawiin effectively controls all traffic entering the Niben. Though how large ships travel through Leyawiin as Oblivion designed it is a mystery... someone forgot to put in the bridges, methinks), but as for Sutch, it was more or less just edited out. There were http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:OB-Sutch_Kvatch_Skingrad.JPG for it, but they were scrapped and Fort Sutch was put over where the city was intended to be. I don't believe they ever put anything in about borders being changed, but rather just sort of edited the world so that Sutch was never in Cyrodiil to begin with (from the design perspective, the Colovian region was likely too crowded as compared to the others. There would be four cities there alone, that being four out of nine. Sutch was simply the least vital of the major cities).

In effect, though, the world we see in the games is severely shrunken. The reality of it is that each region is probably more like Daggerfall, with numerous cities of various sizes and what have you, but such a scope is challenging to reproduce, and Bethesda has moved away from such a style. Thus, what we end up getting is each province's "highlights," but not necessarily all that's actually there. Of course, in the case of Sutch, they really did just move it.

Knowing how crazy the TES series can be, I'd say some crazy wizard experimenting with levitation ended up lifting up the entire city and dropping it in Hammerfell (or maybe it was a mark/recall experiment, explaining why mark/recall is apparently banned in Cyrodiil...). All that's left is the ruins of the old castle...

Wasn't Sutch supposed to be a Legion Fort though? Kind of like the ones in Morrowind?

Who know maybe it was destroyed by the Daedra like Kvatch was...

http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/?p=lore/books§ion=211760 is my favorite explanation of what happened to sutch.

we have no clear indication of *when* it was in hammerfell - since no maps show it there i assume that it was conquered for a while and then won back by cyrodiil (as witnessed by maps and by the fort sutch ruins).

Yes, they were. Sutch was originally in Cyrodiil and I read in this forum that it is now in in Hammerfel because of a slight border change.

Unless it's stated in-game or by a dev, then it's not really to be regarded as truth. Someone might have just mentioned a border change as an excuse for why it was moved, but there's nothing to point to as much in-game (aside from Sutch missing, that is. Even then, the site where it should be is still in Cyrodiil). After all, though it makes sense for the Imperials to annex territory from elsewhere, it wouldn't make sense for them to surrender it. And who knows, maybe that's not even the same Sutch... The only in-game mention is, "In the land of Hammerfell in the city of Sutch there lived a Baron who was quite wealthy," which is from the aforementioned Thief of Virtue. That's obviously not very specific, and may be another city altogether (or it may even be fictional. Just because it comes from an in-game book doesn't mean said book is a book of fact. The Sutch of Hammerfall may not even exist, and the Sutch of Cyrodiil may just be a ruin like in the story Lady Nerevar linked to).

Edit: For further proof that no land changed hands, compare the http://imperial-library.info/pge/cyrodiil.shtml in the time of Sutch, and the http://imperial-library.info/pge3/cyrodiil.shtml after the fall of Sutch. The river is still the border between Hammerfell and Cyrodiil.

I don't care much that Sutch wasn't in the game. What bugs me is that Bethesda categorically denies it was ever INTENDED to be in the game, when it very clearly was. Just as a longtime ES fan I'd love to see concept art, know the reasons for it being deleted, etc. My theory is that it was replaced with Leyawiin to balance out the location of the cities more, but who knows. I'm just not a fan of the whole "It was never there" thing.

Anyway, I don't think the ret-con is that the borders were changed, per say. Seems to be that the official story is that Sutch was always in Hammerfell, since it's original location in Cyrodill is still well within the borders. Or else there are two Sutches...or maybe the devs just didn't give it much thought.

Well, there's the "I should return to Azzan in Sutch" quest update.

I seem to recall that but I don't know where.
Wheres that quote from?

It's the quest log text from a fighter's guild mission.

But Azzan is in Anvil, right?

It's either a leftover from when Bethesda still had plans to include Sutch in the game, possibly the character was meant to be there, but when Bethesda decided to scrap Sutch, they moved in to Anvil but neglected to change that entry, or it's a mistake the writers made that went unnoticed.

In any case, as far as I know, the only alteration in Cyrodiil's borders in Oblivion was the annexing of the Leyawiin area, which is explained in the game.

Dude, that's why the point was made, because Sutch was definitely in the works for Cyrodiil and that pretty much proves it (whatever it was being proven) :trophy: The turf wars aren't all that cool until you've got atomic sword moves and a schizo, war fractal of the future.

As far as I know nothing has changed with the borders in the west... Since the borders there are still divided by the two rivers.....