To be fair, there was pretty much no lore at all before Daggerfall (in Arena, there was the exposition at the beginning, a few scattered bits in the random dialogue, and that's it). It's something like one of the reasons third-world economies can seem to suddenly grow incredibly fast, while first-world ones don't really have that ability anymore: when you grow from nothing, it looks a lot more impressive than when you grow from an already strong position. A simplified metaphor, I know, but I think I'm getting the point across. It's true that Oblivion might not have added as much lore as Daggerfall, but it did add quite a bit indeed, it just seems like a trickle when it's mixed into the vast container that already holds Elder Scrolls lore.

And this is from someone who came into the series when Daggerfall first came out, and lost myself for hours in the huge number of books available to me. I'm just not expecting something to be able to live up to near-perfection and that wonder that comes with seeing something for the first time, I suppose, so it's less of a disappointment. <_<

Definitely a good point. Daggerfall, more than any other game, defined the universe of the series, so just by virtue of that fact it will be tough for any other game to contribute to the lore in quite the same way. I remember how awed I was when I first played the game, realizing that all those books weren't simply decorations or little notes tied to quests. I'd never played a game where you could read up on the history of the world or its environments so extensively within the game--at that time you frequently got 200 pages manuals describing the world, but sticking the books in the game itself went the extra mile toward bringing that world to life.



Ah yes. Weren't the mid/late 90's a glorious time for PC gaming?

Hell i was like 2 years old when i first played Daggerfall.

Anyways, Daggerfall is so big that you never run out of things to do. In Morrowind\Oblivion you run out of quests and loot at some point, and the world becomes kinda empty...

I'm still working on Daggerfall. . . It's not the graphics that kind of keep me away. It's that those bats scare the Oblivion out of me if I don't see them.

As much as I love Morrowind, I can't deny the objectivity of your statement on this matter. Morrowind's regions didn't blend together as gradually or artfully as Oblivion's did. In fact, your example of the fields fo Kummu is a prime example (I know exactly the spot you're talking about because I, too, noticed how abrupt the change was). I think that you are correct in your observation that Oblivion's regional variety may have been a little too subtle for its own good, though. The differences in the colors and textures in the grass, rocks, flowers, wildlife and trees (et al) can be difficult to pick out from region to region, especially if you are not paying attention and just charge through the province looking for the next fight / quest. Which is why we frequently see people describe Oblivion's landscape as 'repetitive, generic, cliche, boring', etc.



I don't know for certain, but I don't think that is how Daggerfall works. I think the gameworld in Daggerfall was randomly generated when it was first created. But when it ships, it is consistent for everyone who plays it. What I mean by that is that the gameworld doesn't seem to change each and every time you exit a dungeon, or start up a new game. The reason I believe this to be true is because I've played two different characters in Daggerfall, and many of the buildings and dungeons are in the same place whenever I play either character. Either that is a phenomenal coincidence, or it means that the gameworld is static when shipped.

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Heh, I think I actually prefer Daggerfall's combat over any other in the series. To each his own. :shrug:




Once again, you speak the truth. But, I have a feeling that it wasn't just the change in lore that people had a problem with, but rather, it was the fact that Bethesda chose to give the die-hards a big middle fing... I mean, 'hand wave', in regards to the setting and political atmosphere of the province as it was previously described. In exchange, what we all got instead was yet another "generic LotR fantasy setting". Basically, a lot of people were pissed because Cyrodiil ended up being absolutely nothing like it was described, but also offered nothing new or fresh. It was a huge let-down, and a big, juicy FAIL on Bethesda's part. That, combined with the level-scaling, FT, streamlining of the game, etc., just rubbed the old fans the wrong way. And to be fair, that is a whole lot of disappointment after four years of waiting.

I know what you mean OP. Loved that feeling. I also loved the combat system, pity they removed the mouse swings, it really felt awesome. For a 1996 game Daggerfall's scope was much much larger than Oblivion. Oblivion really brought nothing new to the gaming world, well, not in my opinion anyway. Daggerfall was mostly randomised, but to me it still felt different. Can't say the same about Oblivion, it felt too bland and generic, mostly due to all that damn green all around.

Here are a few reasons why I think Daggerfall is awesome.

Bear in mind, none of this has anything to do with the main quest.

My mage character enters a random tavern for a drink. He talks to the bartender, who knows my character by name and says he knows of some work for me. I say ok, he tells me to meet his "master" in a different tavern. I go to this tavern, find the "master", who turns out to be an orc shaman who says he has a surprise in store for me. We fight, and I kill him, but just as I finish the killing blow (receiving a message that now my enemies will think twice about bothering me again) the shaman finished his chanting and teleported me into the middle of some dank dungeon (almost as good as a death sentence in Daggerfall) and I have to fight my way out.

When I return to town, everyone knows how I killed that orc shaman.

Then my mage takes a quest from the Mages Guild to travel to another town to retrieve some research notes from a scholar, and is told to watch out for Necromancer interference. But when he gets to the town, a child runs up to him and delivers a letter from a high-ranking assassin in the Dark Brotherhood, telling me to bring the research notes to her, lest the wrath of Mephala come down on my head. He's gotten such letters before and always turned them down, and turns it down again, returning the research notes to the Guild. But this was one time too many and one day while he's traveling he gets attacked by assassins in the next town and is almost killed.

Next, while talking with some nobles in a castle, he's told by a noblewoman about how she's been dealing with the Necromancers to claim an ancient artifact, and tells me that I can claim it instead if I want. I go to a certain dungeon to meet a representative of the Necromancers, who is actually a zombie that tries to kill me. I kill the zombie and find a letter on the body, addressed to me, which says I am worth of the artifact and that there's a blackness on my soul. Signed by none other than the King of Worms himself, and he wants me to meet with him. So I go to another dungeon and meet the King of Worms in a deep chamber, where he says the Underking is trying to thwart the Necromancers' bid for power in Daggerfall, and wishes me to destroy a powerful servant of the Underking's in return for a powerful artifact blessed by Sanguine (the Sanguine Rose in this case). I do the mission and receive the rose, and ever since then commoners on the street have been talking about how Necromantic activity has increased in the region.

Yes, these quests are randomly generated. But that does not mean at all that they are boring or cliche. Some of them are standard fetch/kill quests, but others, like the ones I mentioned, have twists and turns and consequences that can be felt in the game world. And many of them have multiple ways to end the story.

And add in the extraordinary array of character customization options, the numerous guilds and factions and all their interesting services and rewards, and the hidden, difficult-to-find things, like the witch covens and becoming a werewolf or vampire (which are much more difficult to become than in Morrowind and Oblivion, and equally hard to cure), and, well, IMO you've got one heck of a great game.

Funny point on this. I actually find Oblivion much more fun to mod/mod for than Morrowind, because I need to rely more on my imagination and the sandbox feel of the world to entertain myself. :shrug:

Morrowind, what mods I add I try to keep as lore-friendly as possible as to not detract from what (in my opinion) feels to be a more structured world with a stronger sense of purpose.

What I like about Daggerfall is that every time things turn out diffrent and like Cosmar said quest have twist and turns wich add to imersion. In Morrowind and Oblivion things are the same (well not in Oblivion).




I dont think so. I dont play so much so after a while I forget what the quest are like (and not to mention that I have questpacks, heck I even didnt play them all), not to mention how diffrent these quests can turn out.

Are you referring to Daggerfall, or Oblivion? I believe Seti was talking about how repetitive Daggerfall was, especially when compared to Oblivion.

Oblivion was not green all around. There was the tan colored coast line,swamps, and snow regions up North. Don't let your fanboyism cloud your judgement. Bethesda made the decision starting with Morrowind to scale the game down to make it more unique and detailed. I think this was a good decision. Daggerfall was extremely ambitious and never had all the featuers it was suppose to have.

It's not fanboyism, after 5 years I can definitely say it's 'all green'. Very boring. Sure there were some different landscape colours, but most of it was bright green. For a 2004 game compared to a 1996 game, that's weak.

I'd say it is fanboyism, if anything, Oblivion is as much "all green" as Morrowind is "all brown".

I disagree. You really can't sway me on this, I hated Oblivion's lush green and all that bloom. Morrowind was also unique and different, which made it interesting. Oblivion was green and very very regular fantasy. [censored] that [censored]!

That was my point. It's a good thing that Todd acknowledges how important this is, so I'm expecting Skyrim to have its own unique identity.

EDIT: That's all really. Sorry if I came across as an ass, I'm pissed off at something right now (unrelated).

It's okay, hope whatever it is works out.

Anyways, you might have hated it, and I'm not trying to make you like it, but the fact that you hated the lush green environments of Oblivion, doesn't mean it somehow becomes factual to say that Oblivion was all green, because it wasn't all green. It was still, on the surface, pretty regular fantasy, but it wasn't all green. It is demonstrably not all green, just as Morrowind is demonstrably not all brown.