Broader question, have their ever been any mass Daedric Rebillions against any given Prince in any given realm? Or any Mass faction switch in a war between Daedric Princes? I don't think we know. Yet I will be glad when the news presents itself.

Given how nirn-centric the very nature of the ES world is (I mean, just look at the Elder scrolls), I doubt we ever will know except as a parting comment.

I'm guessing they have free will.

I do recall somebody mentioning that a dremora once said that they did not always follow MD, maybe they rebelled against a different prince and went to MD because he was the first princes enemy.

a group of seducers of Nocturnal in Battlespire broke off and joined MD

The Seducers were never allied with any prince. During Battlespire they worked with Dagon, in SI they worked with Sheograth. They, along with the atronachs, are the most glaring proof that lesser daedra are their own seperate entities.

I like to think that the "dark seducers" we see in SI are not actually the seducers we see in Battlespire and Daggerfall. In Battlespire, a lot of them did say the were allied to Nocturnal, but a large number of them broke off and joined Dagon during the invasion. Likewise, a dremora could break off with Dagon and join someone else, if he wished. We just don't see that all too often, because the dremora are allied to Dagon. Atronaches I will agree are pretty much freelance daedra.

You are confused by their nickname the 'Dark Seducers' their realm name is the mazken.

Atronach's are sort of the exception when talking about daedra, they are not actually aligned with anyone

No, I'm not. I don't know if you are aware, but "Dark Seducers" were never mentioned in TES at all until SI. Sheograth's only servants until SI were the Golden Saints. Mazken never existed until Oblivion. Seeing as they greatly resemble the wingless "Daedra Seducers" of Daggerfall it is not far off to associate them.

The Atronachs are no "exception", they just clearly illustrate a trait in all lesser Daedra. perhaps you should read my essay, beacuse again I'm too lazy to go over all the evidence here that indicates the lesser Daedra are independent of the princes.

Indeed. If you look to that offical interview that the Bethesda Devs gave "channeling" Haskil and Dyus from The Shivering Isles that they might be questioned by agents of The Imperal Library, it was exactly a question concerning the allegiance of The Dark Seducers (in consideration of the fact that they seemed to have served Nocturnal with some converting to Mehrunes Dagon at one period of time, but were clearly long time vassals of Sheogorath in The Isles) which drew the scathing response from Haskil that it was foolish to imagine that the loyalties and history of "a great people" such as the Mazken could be summarized in a single tale.

The wingless ones looked Caucasian or tan, not deep purple. And I don't see how the two resemble each other, other than they have the "seducer" part of their name.

Mortazo i owe you an apology, i recently did a little research on both saints and seducers, after reading the book Saints and Seducers i found out that Sheogorath really hadn't created the Seducers:



But i am sure that in an in-game conversation, a seducer does say that their true name is the Mazken, they also said that their name 'Dark Seducers' came to be from their rivals, the Golden Saints.

Is it possible that with the Seducer's transfer to the isles, they took a new identity, 'the Mazken' and the saints mock them by their previous identity.

Battlespire made it fairly clear that daedra have a decent amount of free will. Even the scamps could be convinced to fight for you, and the dremora and a few other daedra could be convinced to not fight you in exchange for something, even though it was ordered for you to be killed. It was even openly known when some would be going against dagon's plans like with the overthrown of the nocturnal relm - "The great Daedra Lord, Mehrunes Dagon, was persuaded that this realm would be an essential waystation toward the conquest of Battlespire, and sanctioned our passage. But he did not sanction the overthrow and occupation of this realm."


And on the matter of seducers, I thought this bit was relevant:

"Deyanira Katrece: Oh Jaciel! Forgive me! It was my foolish pride that cost my mistress her realm. In my vanity I pleaded their case with her. The Seducers are Lordless warriors, and might shift allegiance at will. I thought they might remain loyal to Jaciel, once they knew her honest and honorable nature. But the Seducers were in turn seduced. Dagon rules them now. Though, to my everlasting shame, I fear some Seducers went to him -- Willingly. These Seducers Dagon has remade in the image of his own greed and treachery. All this horror is my fault, and I must atone for it."

AinurOlorin provides the quote (which I had previously forgot) showing that the developers associate them with each other, and there is still an overall resemblance that I feel is there besides just the name.






I mean, that's certainly possible and I'm not refuting that. The main point I'm focusing on though is that you have these guys that just pop out of nowhere often. These princes seem to gain new followers of many different shapes and sizes on a regular and changing basis, and when you even have statements from the more intelligent Daedra confirming hat they can and do come and go from prince-to-prince, it becomes clear that there Daedra are their own entities and are no "of the princes" but, much like weaker wolves follow the stronger ones in a pack, these lesser Daedra are attracted tot he princes for protection and success (beacuse alone they would be easily the targets of aggression by their peers).

The only logical explanation is that they are Et'Ada of weaker power then the princes. Before the convention, it is confirmed that there were teams and team of Et'Ada, thousands if not millions or billions. Is it logical to assume that all but 16 said yes to Sehzarr's plan? No, it isn't. Some people try to assert that the lesser Daedra are simply the wayward children of former "shattered" Daedric princes, but to claim that all but 16 of these swarms of spirits either died making Mundus or followed Magnus to the Aether is just very illogical.

Unlikely if you assume there are indeed millions of et'Ada, but still not illogical. However I would question that assumption. I don't recall it being confirmed anywhere.

from the Monomyth and



and



from the Seven fights (which I don't take much to, but you seem to find it valid so I'll use it to reinforce the info from the Redguard myth) imply larger number pre-Mundus. Enough certainly that Big Papa couldn't deal with all of them. Certainly more then 9+16 and enough Padomayic spirits to equal Anuic ones I'd think.

Mmh. A multitude indeed.

But the last quote mentions servants. Something like the Jills of Akatosh or the Fingers of Kynareth. Compare them to angels, they are seen as part of god. They are elements of a singular being and yet at the same time there exists a multitude of divine actors in the biblical myths.

This might be useful because the multitude itself can not explain the shared appearance, attitude and culture of the lesser Daedra. If there truly was a multitude all the lesser Daedra there would be a multitude individuals. Some would be huge, some smaller, to indicate their power. Not merely nearly identical copies in a clan. And if there is a multitude of millions then by your reasoning there should be more then then the sixteen princes. It would be unlikely that all but sixteen are so insignificant to escape notice or that all but sixteen have no interest in Mundus.

So let's presume that even before Mundus the gods engaged in world creation. Perhaps not true worlds but divine forms of thought where suppositions and different elements of self interests argue. Where idea's entertain other idea's or attack each other with variously formal, obtuse or divine forms of logic. Where two et'Ada interact it would be these little thoughts, these little spirits, these angels, the convey and represent all the detail of such an ordeal.
One might presume these are worlds without free-will, where every action -that is thought- is dictated by the divine mind - and so curiously enough each part thinks independently. As such all members of a clan might be seen as manifested thoughts of what amounts to a single being, the greater-clan.

This concept allows for there be a significant number of et'Ada, allows for an even greater number actors, but also provides a reasonable limit to the number of Princes. How these groups came about is irrelevant. Weather they were created when their prince was shattered, or if they were simply formed without a single authority, or if they sprang from marriage between et'Ada, the end result would be the same.

Ultimately though, without confirming the origins of the lesser Daedra with said lesser Daedra, we're bound to speculation.

There's no reason to assume that these "lesser Aedra" cannot be seperate Et'Ada too, saved from total consumption by the Mundus by being shielded by the divines. Again, with multitudes of Et'Ada there are a variety of subsets and power levels.




For the lesser, non-sentient Daedra like scamps this may very well be true. It may even be true for all, but this still works within my theory. Even if all scamps are really just aspects of one "?ber-Scamp", that "?ber-Scamp" could very possibly be an independent Et'Ada that manifests itself as both a moon orbiting Merhune's Dagon's planet and an army of tiny imps.

And once you get to higher Daedra, like Dremoa, each individual Dremora shows a large level of independence. They take different names, dress differently, have different facial features, ideas, action and clothing. They use different skills
and show different attitudes. The Dremora are in my mind a prime example of what I am trying to illustrate.



All but a 9 Aedra (even though we know there are many more of varying levels f importance and power) are insignificant enough to be ignored. All but 3 Mgna-Ge (2 if you ignore Meridia) are are insignificant enough to be ignored and basically all of them refuse interaction with Mundus. The appearance of Jggalag also shows that there are Daedra that were for the most part completely unknown. I don't see it as that hard to believe.





The issue I see with this, is that if indeed such processes were possible and once practiced, then there would have been no necessity for the Munuds. If Et'Ada could subdivide, create independent reflections and independent interactions between communing spirits then there would have been no reason for them to destroy themselves to create a realm that allowed for something they already did.



Of course, but half of the activity of this forum is based on speculation.

One reason would be the concept of angels. When dealing with such complex beings as manifested concepts, it is much easier to understand the multitude of actions it can undertake if they're all personified.

Another reason would be this:






I see no reason to differentiate here. Where the ?ber-Scamp would still be somewhat dim and unable to understand or express nuance due lack of variation in it's constituent thoughts the ?ber-Dremora is more intelligent and it's constituent thoughts more varied.



The purpose of Mundus wasn't to create a divine convention centre, that is what we ended up with. It's variously been described as an attempt to create something new, something that would break or transcend the Aurbis.



This is definitely the deep end of the pool.

That's where the big kids swim. B)

Angels are actually an example better suited to supporting the individual Daedra concept. For, within the lore, the Angels, Angelohim, Sons Of God, were much more than mere concepts. . . at least, even if they began as concepts ( and thier origins are as mystery shrouded or more so than those of Elder Scrolls Daedra) they developed as distinctly individual, and were not bound to God. The best evidence is that in Judiac, Christian and Islamic lore their are numerous examples of Angels who act in opposition if not in outright defiance to The Biblical God. In the Old Testament their are those of the We to whom God speaks in early Genesis, who act against his wishes by involving themselves with humans. It is said that some among The Sons of God looked upon the Daughters of Adam and lusted after them, and taking on earthly forms of flesh they mated with human women, and their children were The Nephalim, who of old were giants, magicians and men of great power and renown, though some were terribly wicked and cruel. They were supposedly mighty among the Antedelluvial people. Then of course, still in the pre-Christian old Testament, there is the Angel identified in Job by the title Satan, the Adversarial Accuser. When asked by the Old Testament God where he has been when he enters into God's presence amidst the other Angels, he answers audaciously enough, "I have come from going to and fro in The Earth, and from walking Up and down it." Thereafter the debate between the two cosmic Powers begins over the worthiness and loyalty of Job, which Satan mocks, whereupon God takes up a wager, of sorts, and offers Job up. "Behold, I place him in your power. I deliver him into thine hands, only do not take his life." In Kabbalistic Judaic lore there is Azazel, the Angel who in Promethean manner defies the wishes of God, teaching arcane and sorcerous abilities to men. Of course Christianity is full of its rebel Angels. Most famously it links, for the first time in known record, the Angel Satan with the old Testament serpent . . . previously they had been regarded by all as two entirely unrelated entities. And Islam has Iblis, nearest to God but a hater of Man, and related "devils". And this is merely a LORE discussion, not an actual religious theorum or debate. . . I do not need a certain moderator finding a reason to ride my case. :nono: :banghead:

Anyway, I don't know if any of The Dremora are as bold as Satan in Job. . . but they certainly have given ample evidence of individuality. Whatever their origins, their existence is clearly not entirely tied to or dependant upon The Princes.

Well I know that they are fairly aware because when I punch them in the face they overreact with violence.

I thought that was Oblivion General Discussion?

:mellow:

Wah...