I think what Veeno is saying that, the transgender person doesn't necessarily understand their condition or wants to admit to what their feelings are leading to. They might feel their body is wrong or struggle with trying to be manly while having a definitely feminine psychology, (or vice versa) but they don't necessarily understand why they feel that way.
there is nothing wrong with admitting that they are having a struggle, i'd say it is even advised, strongly, i might add. but admitting that you are having a struggle is not the same as admitting you are the opposite "gender", just that you are struggling. struggling with what though? look in your pants, problem solved, struggle solved. if you have a male part, then anyone or anything that tells you are a girl is a liar. its is that black and white and anyone and anything that says it is not is a liar.
just because there are personality traits that might be "female" or "male" don't mean that men can't be sensitive or cry or that women can't be more strict than average. just because a guy can't fix cars or can be more sympathetic or more understanding of women, don't mean he is not a man, just a man with skills and abilities that are different from most men, but that don't make him a her. its is that black and white. likewise for women, just because she is more strict in what she does, or can't cook or whatever, like other girls can, does not make her a him, just a woman with skills and abilities that are different from most women. but that don't make her a him. its is that black and white.
What? No, no. It doesn't work that way.
Let's just assume that you're a guy, yes? Throughout your life, you've been told that you're a male - you're supposed to be tough, boys don't cry, etc, etc. You have had that sense of being drilled into you both by society and by your own mental sense of self. But what if society is the only thing telling you that you're a boy and your mind is saying otherwise? Which do you believe?
A thought experiment would be to try to tell yourself that you're the opposite gender and truly feel that in your heart - it probably won't work. Both society and your own internal sense of self would tell you otherwise.
society is not the only thing that tells me that, though. and objective evaluation of all possible sources of information will eventually lead one back to gender that is same as birth six. unless by a willful act the person chose to ignore some information, including what's in his or her pants, and go for what the "mind" tells him or her. and the mind... you can't trust your mind, its a walking error machine. try this: spell "shop". done? now, what do you do when you come to a green light? eh, no, i said green light. your mind tricked you into saying "stop" when i asked you what do you do when you come to a green light. (that is, unless you heard of the example and have made a note not to make the the same mistake again.) so if you mind can trick you into saying "stop" when i asked you what do you do when you come to a green light, how can you trust your mind then? btw, either you just skipped on noticing purposeful mistake i made in the previous sentence in the parenthesis, or you are really good at catching spelling errors and you did catch it... either way, the word "the" is purposefully repeated twice in the previous sentence and if you missing that(if you did miss it) just again adds to how can you trust your mind then if it can trick you from distorting reality... twice in such a short period of time. and if it can trick you into accepting distorted reality in this, then who's to say that it can't trick you into accepting distorted reality in something else, like, voila, you thinking that you might be a he and not a she.
after a prolonged thought experiment like that though, anything can be believed if sufficient "evidence" are presented. what they "evidence" and evidence are, that is different things. and during this prolonged thought experiment, that is when the person in question decided what "evidence" and or evidence to take as evidence or "evidence"... and then conclude based on those chosen "evidence" or evidence.
and man, boys preferring to spend time with boys has nothing to do with boys wanting to, hm, look at boys that way after puberty hits. its normal human thing for males to associate with other males, for one because it is easy to understand other males because the male himself is a male-having a body part and mentality to match... and any variations to that mentality, though they may not be as exact as the next male's, are just variations of his own personality, skills, abilities, etc, not a grounds for a different six or gender. and if that man has GID, then the GID can affect your physical body as much as his mental health-physical body will simply be reflecting mental changes because physical body is supposed to be in harmony with mental.
No, I don't think it's preposterous at all. If it were apparent from the get go that he is a woman in a mans body, the friends wouldn't be all upset trying to deal with it. They would just laugh it off and say "I KNEW it!" But apparently he was acting a certain way all along (like a man) with no hint that he actually feels like a woman. So, yes, in a way, he deceived them into thinking he is "all" man. I'm not downgrading the guy, just pointing out that since everyone is so shocked by this turn of events, either they are complete morons and couldn't see the obvious in front of their face, or he has been deceiving them into thinking he is a manly man, not a woman trapped inside a mans body. :shrug:
this.
You are assuming that the transgender / gay person knows from age two or whatever that they are gay or transgender. And that there is a way to tell if a person is gay or transgender simply by their actions or looks.
It doesn't work that way.
As I've explained multiple times in this thread - biology plays a role in whether a person will identify as transgender. Hormones also play a role - they kick-start everything when the individual goes into puberty. So, for roughly 12-13 years, the person doesn't have any real inkling they are transgender or homosixual. It is only until around age 13-15 that they begin to have these different feelings - and typically these feelings take a year a more to become integrated / self-identify with those feelings. And then comes the part where the person has to come to terms with telling his friends and other people about all of this confusion and change in his life - this can likewise take time. So, in between the person self-identifying as transgender and the person telling his friends about all of this could be warped into being construed as a "lie" it is generally a very short time frame - maybe a year or two - almost a blip in a 12+ year friendship.
That also doesn't take into account that the guy has been told from about the day he was born that he has to act a certain way to be a "man" in whatever society he grows up in. To go against all of that "manly" stuff is to be seen as weak, cowardly, etc, etc. To begin to fight against that sort of societal conditioning is likewise a very difficult and time-consuming process as well.
Deception requires intent. From what I understand from everything the OP has said, there was no deception on the part of his transgender friend.
what's in the person's pants should be all that is needed to know who that person will grow up to be having feelings for and identify themselves as. if he or she intends to reproduce, then it goes into one place... anything besides that produces no babies(except surrogate mothers that is). so even in the question of reproduction what's in the pants tells one what they need to know with feelings developing later to supplement and compliment the six, not to supplement and compliment the gender chosen during these said short years, as you say.
there is no conditioning, only people acting accordingly... to what is in his pants.
there is not going to be any agreement between us though, as the fundamental question of whether or not there is objective reality has not been resolved. or if it has then we are on two opposing sides. there may be one elephant in the room, but if all who study the elephant are blind, then there will be as many 'versions' of the elephant as there are those who study the elephant.
» Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:35 am 
