yeah, i've read the game informer article about combat and im really happy to learn that bethesda is trying to fix the issues with oblivion's system.

i'd love to hear how ppl here think the system should work and how they imagine it will work in practice.

i think that a system that might actually be kinda close to what we might see in skyrim is "risen's" system. yeah, that game is unpolished like a broekn 30 year old Oldsmobile but it was an over the shoulder combat system (not a free camera system like in fable or AC or batman:AA or whatever) which means it's catered to fights with a rather low number of enemies and it allows directional input (where right means right of the player. not as right in a general direction). Risens system was an evolution to oblivion. not a direct one but it just had better ideas. there was a lot of requirements for timing. timing your attacks rhythm, timing your parries, aiming your arrows and magic etc.

gameinformer said that the devs are going for a timing based blocking system (kinda like Batman arkham asylum where holding the block button was not a block. u had to time it right) and i gotta say that i LOVE the idea. in a sword fight , even more than in a fisticuffs fight, it is important that blocking is reactive. not passive. the defender needs to know what angle to block in according to the specific incoming attack. i am adoring the idea the blocking successfully will require skill.

this brings a few questions to mind, though:
1) will blocking prevent all damage?
2) how is the player supposed to handle many enemies that circle him and still be able to see who to block and see him in time?
3) how can the player counter the AIs blocking? Do we, as players, have the tools to handle a blocking opponent?

about point 1) frankly i hope the answer to question no.1 is "YES". it's not the oblivion way but in a blocking system that requires timing i feel like i need to be rewarded a lot for blocking. not just prevent 80% damage but more. in oblivion if u took damage from blocking incoming attacks u could avoid damage by back stepping and zigzagging around. yeah, it looked ridiculous but it was a valid tactic made possible due to the mechanics. in skyrim we heard todd say that back stepping will be slower. we can no loner avoid damage this way. if this is the case than we gotta have a way to avoid damage altogether. i think we are past the days in RPGs where the player cant avoid damage at all and has to rely on potions. this kind of gameplay is archaic.
because of this notion i tend to believe that blocking will prevent all damage. if it doesnt than i sure hope of a dodgin mechanics that allows us to get out of the way.
BUT, if we can dodge out of the way i bet it must be done by dodging in the perfect timing. now comes another question -
if dodging needs to be done in perfect timing and blocking also needs to be done in perfect timing than what is the difference between the two option? what makes the player implement both of them and not just pick the one that has no down sides?
in my opinion a solution is simple - make dodging a way to get out of swords reach. its purely defensive. blocking will keep the player close enough to hit his opponent. i havent seen a game that utilizes this simple idea and this is why im skeptical it will be implemented.

about point 2) i have no guesses to this one. i think that for combat against multiple enemies in melee the AI will need to be dumbed down so they wont flank the player from the sides and rear. if they do flank than this can mean a few things -
a > enemies can die quickly enough so u can easily dispose them to make sure u r not confronting too many of them.
b > stealth, archery and magic is really important to complement sword fighting. what i mean is that the warrior should get rid of as many enemies before they close on him and circle him to death.
c > there is an effective way to moving around fast enough to get out of a circle of enemies. again - dodgin?!

about point 3) this might not be clear so i will elaborate. if blocking is done only when the AI is attacking the player than i can assume this is the case with the AI as well - they block only when the player is attacking. what this means is that the player cant tell if the enemy is going to block him or not. while its completely realistic it kinda makes sense (gameplay wise) that the player will have something to do against an enemy that is blocking. a system where the succession of the player's attacks (if they hit or not) is only dependent on the AI and not the player is not a great system, IMO. being at the mercy of the AI praying they wont block is how most games do it but i really hope Bethesda will find a better way. give players an ACTIVE way to counter a blocking enemy.
but the issue remains - if players can tell if the enemy is blocking or not, how can they implement a block-breaker move? i have a few ideas in my mind but i wont elaborate yet cuz u've read enough and u must be tired already.

I will stop typing now. i hope i have sparked the urge to discuss this subject. if combat is skyrim is something im going to so so much i really wish it will be fun and DEEP!

i doubt it. it'll probably absorb the brunt of the attack but you'll still get hurt from it.



get better at videogames. this will of course lead to people going BUT IT'S AN RPG NOT AN FPS and acting like TES has ever had slow, thoughtful, tactical combat in its history.



you can hope that your strike breaks through their blocking, with a power attack or something. alternatively you could shield bash.

i saw a post somewhere yesterday that likened the combat to that of Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, with shield bashing instead of kicking. i must say i'm very excited to see how this plays out.

about your reply to point 2) u can only be good at a game if the game gives u the tools. imagine oblivion without the ability to move like a bunny. in a real fight u will be screwd. no one can run as fast as in oblivion to not get circled. plus, in oblivion the AI usually didnt circle the player.
im wishing like u do - that the combat will be reflex based. not stats based. therefor players cant just absord hits. they need to get better at fighting to prevent death from themselves. but a game that gives a realistic challenge also needs to provide a realistic solution. if combat in skyrim is slow and more methodical (more like AC) than the realistic solution of good peripheral vision is impossible. there must be another way.

besides, i think the hold the block button with a shield SHOULD allow of constant blocking while holding block with a sword SHOULDNT. it's how it is in real life, sorta. but we already know that this wont be the case.

about 3) shield bash will likely stagger the enemy. so what? we will do a shield bash before EVERY attack to make sure he doesnt block? while it makes sense it doesnt sound like fun. i mean that if the AI needs to time it's blocks like the player does than we cant tell if the AI is about to block or not by it's posture. there IS no blocking posture. the player will only find out if the AI is blocking once his sword collide with the AI's. then it's already too late to shield bash.

Do you by any chance remember were you found this? I would very much like to see it

I want blocking to at least cut off half of the incoming damage. I'd block in Oblivion and still recieve the same amount of damage. The only use for it was to stagger people/ knock people down.

honestly even if they DO circle you i highly doubt it'll be as difficult as you think it will be. i mean even in Oblivion you faced at most like three enemies at any given time. if combat was fast enough and your reflexes were good enough and you used the environment to your advantage (chokepoints, height, getting an obstacle between you and your opponent, whatever) it would be trivial to dispatch them.



the GI article said combat was very much about studying your opponent and waiting for the right opening to make your move, and the way i'm seeing that in my head is a lot of you and them just facing each other waiting for the other to attack first, at which point (with sufficient proficiency in your given weapon) you'd take them down in a few quick hits (or two or three particularly strong power attacks, if you're playing a HEAVY). i've never really played AC so i don't remember how combat worked in that but it had the fortune of being in third-person which meant that even if somebody did get behind you you'd at least KNOW that.

the way i'm thinking is pretty much just "don't let yourself get surrounded". move around a lot, and if you feel like you can't take them on without dying then make a tactical escape.



it's a combination of new combat dynamics and a limited number of controls. where holding the block button in Oblivion worked fine, in Skyrim holding it leads to a shield bash. i guess they could make it so if you're holding it down you just block all the time and if you hit attack while blocking THEN you shield bash, but i dunno. they're really looking to change the combat dynamic this time around, so i understand why it is the way it is. it's too easy to just turtle behind a shield.



we don't KNOW this yet, though, so you can't really make that assumption. maybe there will be tells. maybe they'll twitch, raise their shield slightly and then decide against it. maybe they'll fall for feints. until we actually see footage of human-on-human combat there's really no use guessing how it'll work, since the way they're describing it is so wildly different from the other TES games and i highly doubt it'll just play out like the clickspam combat in Gothic or Risen.

actually , the clever thing is that IRL when a warrior would turtle behind a shield the attacker still had options. nice lil ideas like pushing the turtling shield in it's elbow side using your own shield would open him up. same as kicking the defenders shield in it's buttom will cause the shield to tilt downwards opening the opponents head. if bethesda will really look into real life combat they will find all the balance they need.

i truly hope that combat WILL be visceral and an enemy can be taken out in just a few good hits, and not like in many RPGs where the two of you change dozens of blows before someone kneels over and die. i WANT to feel fragile. i WANT a good defense to be what saves me rather than potions and i WANT to resort to running away from a fight if i can't seem to be close to winning.

of course we cant know what the combat will be like. i just think that guessing and assuming is entertaining enough to keep a discussion on

I'm curious to know how blocking will work if say, for instance, you're carrying a fire spell in one hand and a sword in the other... This might get into issues with a new control scheme, but if there's a two hands system then I would assume LT would be your left hand while RT would be your right, which would mean you'd need either a two handed weapon or a shield to block, unless of course RT would just attack, even if you had two weapons, but this fails to explain a spell/weapon combo, so perhaps a different button will be block... This brings up so many questions...

you can't block if you don't have a shield. hitting the button will make you attack. holding it will make you power attack.



i do too, bro. like people say OH BUT NOW IT'S AN ACTION RPG and act like there was once a time when TES games had isometric RTwP combat systems but it's impossible to do that [censored] in first-person and have it actually FEEL FUN. i really liked what Oblivion brought to the table combat-wise but it suffered from everybody having either ridiculously high HP or ridiculously low damage - changing it so the biggest effect on how much damage you dealt was your strength, rather than your weapon skill, made combat feel a lot better.

Todd said they're trying to make combat really feel like “someone's life is going to end" and i'm really excited to see exactly how that feels. if Skyrim winds up playing out with the brutality of something like DEMON'S SOULS or something then that would be fantastic.

actually i assume that u will have a LEFT HAND button, a RIGHT HAND button and a BLOCK button. my guess its gonna be LT, RT and X. and i assume blocking, in such a case, will be executed with the weapon. i highly doubt that u cant block with a sword.
what i do wonder is how do u block if both hands are made for magic.

wait, magic in your hand means a staff or just an empty hand? i assume if u have magic on your hand than it will be empty. how do u block with two empty hands? probably some magical barrier.