Well, let's start with KotN. I have one and a half issues, one I'm here to fix and one that'll probably stay. The latter being that vanilla Oblivion catches flak for being good vs. evil yet KotN, in which infamous characters can't use the amror and the villain is pretty well Evil with a capital E, is only half an issue because let's face it, it's one of the rare occasions where unbridled evil makes sense in the TES context. Not to mention the well and uped quality of writing in general. The main issue I have I think you all may be able to help me with. Umaril atacks the chapels of the Nine Divines. Okay. Why? Was it because the Eight Divines religion was founded by the very queen who'se champion cast him down and so it is associated with his downfall or am I way off?

The second is about Talos (the prophet reminded me). what is everyone's opinion of retroactive godhood? Particularly Tiber Septim, since blood spilled from his mortal body was enough to open the door to Camoran's Paradise. So, do you think that would have worked outside Oblivion, or not?

1) Possibly. He did ally himself with Meridia, well, bound himself and that probably that the men were winning. That probably peeved him off, seeing as how lowly men were winning the rebellion, and took it that the aedra were favoring the men instead of the mer in that conflict.

2) I forgot who said it, but I think it had to do with some of the symbolism behind it.

The Knights of the Egghead fit Pendragon more than Pelinal, but anyways.

Umaril's beef was with the Aedra. He was an Ayleid Daedra-worshiper, not a Daedra trafficker targeted by modern propaganda.

He was beginning an assault on the church, which could succeed on a cosmic as well as mundane scale if mortals forsook their impotent gods.

I don't know what you mean by outside Oblivion. Martin opened the portal in front of an Akaviri fireplace. The symbolism was sound, but I bet the quest writers had no idea.

I mean outside Oblivion the game. Basically, would that work in lore? Seems like you guys think so, and I was wondering about the retroactive nature of godhood in general. But if it's more the sybolism than enantinomorphing turning him into a god while he was still a mortal in earlier times then okay.

In this case good and evil is ordained by the gods, the same gods that set a mad murdering Pelinal loose on the Ayleid. The gods are sanctimonious bastards and considering the gods are created by people, it is all comfortably devoid of moral absolutes.

Like the UESP points out, it's surprising Martin couldn't just use the Brush of Truepaint. My speculation is that regardless of whether or not Septim's blood pre-apotheosis really counts as divine ichor, something about his association with the amulet (like all past emperors) helps him jump between planes.

I can't really justify it and most of the ES metaphysics is yet beyond me (need to read more lore books!), but somehow the association with the amulet and closing access between planes seems to make me think the reverse is somehow also possible.

This "retroactive gods" theory also explains why your mundane infamy affects both your worthiness to wear the Relics of the Crusader and your worthiness to receive blessings in the Chapels.

Umaril is probably pissed off that a champion of the Aedra defeated him and effectively dealt the blow that led to the long and absolute decline of the Ayleid Empire in Cyrodill. Also, as others have stated, he feels that the Aedra forsook the Ayleids in favor of humans, although the Ayleids forsook them first by allying with Daedra like Meridia.

A question I often pose is, could Umaril actually destroy the Aedra themselves? Wouldn't that destroy Mundus? Or would he perhaps simply destroy enough of their followers and shrines that they could no longer influence events very much? (Except Kynareth....nature itself is her domain and I doubt Umaril would go that far with the Ayleid affinity for birds and things). It's true that they can't manifest themselves on Nirn at all except in extremely unique situations because their bodies are quite literally dead. Their bones are the world. They are in a form of stasis befitting beings of sameness. Akatosh manifested himself, however it may have been an avatar and not his original body, and it took an extreme sacrifice. Also, a few of the Divines sent Avatars in human form in Morrowind.



The way I understand things to be in the Elder Scrolls universe is that there are many paths to Godhood, but once somebody is a God that person was ALWAYS a god even if that person had a mortal history. It's complicated and somebody more knowledgeable than myself could explain it better. In some instances it's explained by dragon breaks but with some such as Arkay it's never explained at all in any detail.

I always though The Prophet was Talos, or an incarnation of him anyway (remember Wulf from MW?). He gives you the 'Blessing of Talos' after all.

I think what you're trying to say is that the sphere of godhood was always there and that sphere is what everybody sees, when a mortal joins that there would be no real difference from when he wasn't in the sphere either way it was always there, even if the mortal is cast down that sphere will still be there, sort of like how sheogorath becomes you rather than you becoming sheogorath in SI

To top it off, they have such pretentious messages at their altars (complete with holier-than-thou trashtalking if you have high Infamy), and their wayshrines judge your worthiness by your fame. Moderator: Edited. Real-world religious references are out of order.

Umaril is misunderstood. Everyone likes a little bit of vengeance now and then. Just vengeance.

Yes, maybe he was misunderstood, maybe he was a lot of things, but there is a fine line between misunderstood and psychotic killer, when he massacres a chapel and starts writing in blood, something tells me he crossed off to the wacko side :wacko:

Tell that to Pelinal.

touche

Don't bring Pelinal into this, he was completely justified in his actions. First all, all elves have to die, that's just the way things are. Second, he's like the Hulk; don't get him angry. All he needed was some therapy sessions, but Alessia denied him help, which caused him to not be able to control his anger.

:rofl: who can argue with that logic, you have shown me the light conan the elf-slayer



PELINAL SMASH! PELINAL BASH! PELINAL...NEED TO SEE DOCTOR :rofl:



Guess that explains why he needs the therapy ( :whisper: anger management)

There is no need for violence to set a dispute.
Not even the savage Orsimer are that brutal...

I'm in a quite sleepy mode.