And if not; where did the races of mer come from? Has it left the plane of mundus?

The Dwemer all disappeared as a result of monkeying about with the divine, is it possible that the Aldmer did the same thing to their continent? Did it suffer the same fate as Yokuda? Has it 'drifted' further south and out of navigable range due to some Aldmer muck-up, or natural phenomenon? What are some of the theories?

Im pretty sure i read somewhere that Aldmeris is more of an ideal for the High Elves than a continent; much like Resdayn is considered nowadays.

I all goes back to the ehlnofey wars.

Am I getting it right? If not, then someone should correct me

Aldmeris doesn't actually exist; at least, not in this cycle of the world. Its not so much an ideal as simply the state of homogeneous culture the Mer existed in before they split along cultural lines in the Dawn Era. It also neatly explains how the Dwemer were already inhabiting Morrowind before the coming of the Chimer.

the races of mer came from the same place as the races of men, argonians, akaviri, and all other peoples of tamriel. they are decedent from the gods who originally became trapped in nirn. Aldmeris is this concept of one greater, united peoples as opposed to many splintered factions.

In other words, it's Tamriel before the Aldmer diverged into the Altmer, Chimer, Dwemer etc?

In a basic sense, yes.

For some reason I like to say that "The kingdom of Aldmeris is within you." Lady Nerevar and the rest of the posters in this thread have put it better than I could, though.

That would make more sense if Aldmeris was Heaven though. but that's me nitpicking.

Your point is probably correct, though.

Don't forget the cardinal feature of how TES lore works.
Many consider Aldmeris to be a figurative/cultural/temporal phenomenon rather than a physical place.

dont forget the cardinal feature of how TES lore works:
Aldmeris being a physical continent from which all Elves migrated reeks of Tolkein and various rip-offs, and is therefore boring and wrong. it also doesnt make sense when compared to settlement patters of the merethic/1st era.

I'm not so sure that we can say with 100% certainty that Aldmeris never physically existed, especially on a BATW basis - Atmora existed after all, the races of men came to Tamriel through mass migration (and the Ra'Gada from Yokuda). Any exodus from Aldmeris would have been much earlier (and therefore more obscure), given the establishment of mer on Tamriel when the first men arrived.

The PGE also states;
"Translation from the ancient tapestries and texts in the Crystal Tower of Summerset have yielded only the barest of sketches of a beautiful but very strange land. In no representation of Aldmeris are there any trees or life but the Aldmer themselves. It appears always as an endless city, built upon itself over and over again, until no nature remains at all. The highest towers are reserved for interring the dead, a tradition continued on the Crystal Tower itself."

Where did these tapestries come from, and what do they describe? Tamriel is certainly no endless city. Although this could all be symbolic/metaphorical, I suppose. A physical Aldmeris also makes sense considering the location of the Maormer and Altmer; if the migration was from the south we'd expect the largest concentration of Mer to the south, which is what we get. Settlement patterns also indicate this;
"In the Middle Merethic Era, the Aldmeri (mortals of Elven origin) refugees left their doomed and now-lost continent of Aldmeris (also known as 'Old Ehlnofey') and settled in southwestern Tamriel. The first colonies were distributed at wide intervals on islands along the entire coast of Tamriel. Later inland settlements were founded primarily in fertile lowlands in southwest and central Tamriel. Wherever the beastfolk encountered the Elves, the sophisticated, literate, technologically advanced Aldmeri cultures displaced the primitive beastfolk into the jungles, marshes, mountains, and wastelands. The Adamantine Tower was rediscovered and captured by the Direnni, a prominent and powerful Aldmeri clan. The Crystal Tower was built on Summerset Isle and, later, White Gold Tower in Cyrodiil. "
From Before the Ages of Man.

As for the Dwemer;
"During the Middle Merethic Era, Aldmeri explorers mapped the coasts of Vvardenfel, building the First Era High Elven wizard towers at Ald Redaynia, Bal Fell, Tel Aruhn, and Tel Mora in Morrowind....

The Late Middle Merethic Era is the period of the High Velothi Culture. The Chimer, ancestors of the modern Dunmer, or Dark Elves, were dynamic, ambitious, long-lived Elven clans devoted to fundamentalist ancestor worship. The Chimer clans followed the Prophet Veloth out of the ancestral Elven homelands in the southwest to settle in the lands now known as Morrowind. Despising the secular culture and profane practices of the Dwemer, the Chimer also coveted the lands and resources of the Dwemer, and for centuries provoked them with minor raids and territorial disputes. The Dwemer (Dwarves), free-thinking, reclusive Elven clans devoted to the secrets of science, engineering, and alchemy, established underground cities and communities in the mountain range (later the Velothi Mountains) separating modern Skyrim and Morrowind.

The Late Merethic Era marks the precipitous decline of Velothi culture. Some Velothi settled in villages near declining and abandoned ancient Velothi towers. During this period, Velothi high culture disappeared on Vvardenfell Island. The earliest Dwemer Freehold colonies date from this period."
From the same book.

Is there any reason these early explorers could not have been pre-dated by earlier explorers (or even become themselves) Dwemer? We know they came in some numbers to be able to establish the Tel Aruhn, Tel Mora, etc.

all the men did not come form atmora. The Nords did, the Nedic tribes (Nedes, Cothringi, etc.) were already on Tamriel during the Merethic (and hence got enslaved by the Aylieds). The tapestries are either metaphor, a representation of the past (Alinor is said to be littered in ruins of all sorts of civilizations), or a literal photo of the Dawn era during (which was an unstable time by its very nature). The elven population patterns do not make sense: yes there are Aldmer in the south, but there are also the Left Hand Elves on a whole different western continent and the Dwemer in the north-west. The Aldmer were also present in the Illiac during the creation of the Adamantine, meaning a long time ago. the only problem with an earlier expedition is timeline: Aldmeris must have existed as a physical place since the dawn or earlier for the Aldmer to spread out all over the world by the late dawn/early merethic era. The problem with Aldmeris lies also in its location: there is no place on the current globe to put it, and it would have coexisted with Yokuda which itself took up a huge chunk of land.

the only time it could have been a physical place is during the dawn, and the concept of physicality in such an age is rather... unstable.

Come on, can't you see the obvious answer?

Cite for saying all the men didn't come from Atmora? Bar the Ra'Gada. And I know, originally they didn't, but we're talking about settling Tamriel. Ayleid slaving (and the subsequent Alessian overthrow) taking took place during the late Merithic/early First Era, which has no relation to whether men are from Atmora or not.
Historians often portray the human settlement of Tamriel as a straightforward process of military expansion of the Nords of Skyrim. In fact, human settlers occupied nearly every corner of Tamriel before Skyrim was even founded. These so-called "Nedic peoples" include the proto-Cyrodilians, the ancestors of the Bretons, the aboriginals of Hammerfell, and perhaps a now-vanished Human population of Morrowind. Strictly speaking, the Nords are simply another of these Nedic peoples, the only one that failed to find a method of peaceful accommodation with the Elves who already occupied Tamriel.

Ysgramor was certainly not the first human settler in Tamriel. In fact, in "fleeing civil war in Atmora," as the Song of Return states, Ysgramor was following a long tradition of migration from Atmora; Tamriel had served as a "safety valve" for Atmora for centuries before Ysgramor's arrival. Malcontents, dissidents, rebels, landless younger sons, all made the difficult crossing from Atmora to the "New World" of Tamriel. New archeological excavations date the earliest human settlements in Hammerfell, High Rock, and Cyrodiil at ME800-1000, centuries earlier than Ysgramor, even assuming that the twelve Nord "kings" prior to Harald were actual historical figures.
Frontier, Conquest, and Accommodation.
All from Atmora, doesn't conflict with the Ayleid enslavement. Yokoda, or what's left of it, is due west of Tamriel: http://www.imperial-library.info/maps/tamriel_westmap.bmp

The geography doesn't preclude a hypothetical Aldmeris to the southwest of Tamriel. Again, look at where Pyandonea, Summerset and Valenwood (all dominions of the mer) are located (and the direction of the Velothi exodus, and the establishment of the Ayleid kingdoms (which the PGE seems to corroborate: In what historian called the Merethic (or Mythic) Era, the years before formal historical reckoning, the Aldmer came to Tamriel from the legendary mysterious land called Old Ehlnofey or Aldmeris. They settled in Summerset Isle, and then began to spread out eastward. The Nedic people meanwhile came from the frozen land of Atmora to the north to what is today Skyrim. Where elves and men met, inevitably, there was hostility.

The Aldmer changed over time culturally according to their new environments, being at first temperamentally and then physically very distinct "races" separate from one another. The ones who stayed in Summerset became known as the Altmer; in Valenwood, Bosmer; in Morrowind, Chimer and Dwemer; in Cyrodiil, Ayleid; and in High Rock, a mix between Nedic and Aldmer birthed the Bretons. ). The Dwemer are more of an enigma, but then aren't they always? The PGE seems to back this up and stretches the credulity of the tapestries being entirely some sort of extended metaphor;
It was once belived that the Maormer of Pyandonea were originally exiles from the Summerset Isle, but while it is likely they came from similar Aldmeri ancestors, they certainly did not come from Summerset. Translations of tapestries in the Crystal Tower tell the tale of a far older enmity. The Maormer were likely separated from the ancient Aldmer not in Summerset, but in their original homeland of Aldmeris.
PGE, 3rd Edition

However, we do know that all attempts to rediscover it have met with failure. Which makes me suspect that one of the scenarios in the OP took place, as opposed to the idea that it never existed in the first place - IMO the history behind it is sketchy, simply due to how long ago the exodus was. The known exodus from Atmora was thousands of years later and Atmora itself is virtually unknown.

before i do anything else, just a quick question: why ask us whether Aldmeris existed if you are convinced that it did? If you will not accept arguments to the contrary it looks like you are simply asking for your opinion to be reaffirmed.

its also pretty damn helpful to list exactly where your getting those quotes from. i could quote daggerfall as saying that orcs came out of an interdimensional portal, but thats wrong now. your "all men came from Atmora" quotes are very similar to that, we have new information saying that Aldmeris was more concept than physical location. However, texts remain (both in-universe and outside knowledge) that indicate to the contrary, either because they were written before the new lore or because they are writen in the in-character view of someone who doesnt know any better.

The construction of the Adamantine tower is traditionally used to mark the beginning of the Merethic Era. The Adamantine tower is what stabilized Nirn and made it a physical place, as opposed to a jumble of ever-changing ideas. We know that Mer (and likely men) witnessed its construction because it is mentioned in their myths and solidified in the building of their own Towers. This means that at the moment Nirn became Nirn the Aldmer were already spread across the globe. Taken together, this means that Aldmeris as a continent had to exist sometime in the early Dawn era. If you know anything about the Dawn you should know that it can barley be charted in terms of time: everything was constantly changing and popping in and out of existence. Gods became plants became earth became men became mer became plants again, fought mirror-visions of each other and slew them (or did not), and gave birth to their own parents. Saying that Aldmeris existed then is therefore essentially meaningless.

Now, what about men? the Anuad tells the tale clearly, one continent, split in many parts by the war of the Dawn, two races (man and mer, and their metaphysical equivallents on other continents). The primary settlements of men were in Atmora and Yokuda, yet men also existed in Cyrodiil (and perhaps Akavir). We know that the Aldmer intermingled with the native populations of Highrock to such a degree that by the arival of the nords they were an entirely different population. We also have tenative Nordic myths describing the war of the Dawn as it takes place in Skyrim, suggesting that at least some Nordic ancesors were there during that time (though in a non-modern form, obviously). Sure, you can say that the men migrated to Tamriel during the Dawn, but since time (and any sort of logical existance) does not begin until the Merethic (and even then its sketchy...) it would be as good as having them life there in the first place.

the main, writen out, strait forward proof of this comes from letters 4 and 5 of the Nu-Mantia intercept.

Technically, all life on Nirn originated from other planets. heh.

No, but the lore is contradictory (as always), I was looking for something conclusive that I'd missed. The source is always under the quote. I'd accept arguments to the contrary.
Things that occurred in The Dawn are a meaningless jumble, indeed.

"Other Ehlnofey arrived on Nirn scattered amid the confused jumble of the shattered worlds, wandering and finding each other over the years. Eventually, the wandering Ehlnofey found the hidden land of Old Ehlnofey, and were amazed and joyful to find their kin living amid the splendor of ages past. The wandering Ehlnofey expected to be welcomed into the peaceful realm, but the Old Ehlnofey looked on them as degenerates, fallen from their former glory. For whatever reason, war broke out, and raged across the whole of Nirn. The Old Ehlnofey retained their ancient power and knowledge, but the Wanderers were more numerous, and toughened by their long struggle to survive on Nirn. This war reshaped the face of Nirn, sinking much of the land beneath new oceans, and leaving the lands as we know them (Tamriel, Akavir, Atmora, and Yokuda). The Old Ehlnofey realm, although ruined, became Tamriel. The remnants of the Wanderers were left divided on the other 3 continents."
The Anuad Paraphrased

How far can this be matched with other sources and evidence?

Auri-El (King of the Aldmer): The Elven Akatosh is Auri-El. Auri-El is the soul of Anui-El, who, in turn, is the soul of Anu the Everything. He is the chief of most Aldmeri pantheons. Most Altmeri and Bosmeri claim direct descent from Auri-El. In his only known moment of weakness, he agreed to take his part in the creation of the mortal plane, that act which forever sundered the Elves from the spirit worlds of eternity. To make up for it, Auri-El led the original Aldmer against the armies of Lorkhan in mythic times, vanquishing that tyrant and establishing the first kingdoms of the Altmer, Altmora and Old Ehlnofey. He then ascended to heaven in full observance of his followers so that they might learn the steps needed to escape the mortal plane.
Varieties of Faith
Was Old Ehlnofey a more...unstable divine construct, or the result of the war being to create Tamriel and destroy what the Crystal Tower tapestries tell us of Aldmeris?

The problem with this is that the Mer we know and love didn't start spreading out across Tamriel until the middle Merithic, long after the chaotic Dawn and more congruent with other sources. There's no doubt that in the Dawn the Ehlnofey were to settle from the chaos on various continents and become the races of mer and men. But did the Ehlnofey that were to become Aldmer settle just on Tamriel? Due to the evidence of other sources, and the fact that the Anuad doesn't necessarily contradict the idea, I'm not convinced. What I am convinced is that we may never know, through contradictory evidence and the shroud of age and myth that encompasses not only any exodus, but Aldmeris itself.

Good use of sources, haven't seen that in a while. edit: And a fast writer too.

While Frontier, Conquest, and Accommodation doesn't exclude the possibility that came to Tamriel from Atmora, their presence all over Tamriel and Yokuda does suggest against it. At least without further information on when and how they spread, they should be assumed to have been there ever since the end of the Dawn.

But lets get to something more fundamental. How do you lose an entire continent while you're on it?

The conflict itself is elaborated in the Anuad, it's also referenced in Faith in the Empire and the Monomyth.



Now what is described as merely ruin, should be taken in the context of a war between et'Ada. For a better impression I'd have trace down a text that describes the submission of Summerset by the Numidium while it sings world refusals, and that was only one god.

However, even though Old Elnofey, that is Aldmeris, became Tamriel, according to timeline, the Altmer weren't on it.



The intercept follows the same line of thought, Aldmeris only existed in the deep end of the Dawn Era. However unlike the Anuad, Nu-Hatta considers Tamriel to be the birth place of all mortal life.

While this should settle what happened to Aldmeris, simultaneously a concept, an ideal, a place in a period where gods controls the events in time as if it were a war. A period in which early Aldmer tried to retain the extreme organisation and order of Aetherius. There is no real resolve on who was where when.

This is a fundamental problem of the border of the Dawn and the Merethic, when the et'Ada gave up their hold of time, by leaving or surrendering to Mundus, the individual timelines they created would be put together. While the people would still retain memories of the Dawn and it would seem as if there was no real change, but to us and other people used to a synchronized time it would be as if everything appeared at once. Literally as if one were to start a new a new game, anything prior to it would merely be a story.

A story that in this case is more then seven-thousands years old and rife with ideology, but I'll leave those anolysis to others.

edit:

Some more about what the war in the Dawn Era would look like.

http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=921446&st=80#

Interesting stuff, so there's most likely no way to 'rediscover' what the state of Aldmeris/Old Ehlnofey was, short of a time machine? Somewhat disappointing, but then if anyone can manage it...

Thanks for the link, too, I'm not all that familiar with the chaotic Dawn.

Right now? Not really, though Nu-Hatta is one more the more credible sources and out of Atmora reeks of old imperial propaganda. Then again calls for unity in a crumbling empire reek just as badly.