I believe that the secrets of CHIM are rather simple really. The secret lies in the Nine and the Daedra. I recently played through Oblivion again and listened more intently on Mankar Camoran's speech about the subject of Lorkhan and Tamriel. A piece of the speech shone like a star:

and Dawn's Beauty, the Princedom of Lorkhan

He also named the betrayers of Lorkhan which are Julianos, Dibella and Stendarr.

This also caught my attention:

They have tricked you for Ages.
Why do you think your world has always been contested ground, the arena of powers and immortals?

It is my belief that the Nine betrayed Lorkhan during the Mythic Era of which no written history can be found:



The Nine could be faulted for this lack in written knowledge for the above quote.

Since, according to Camoran, Tamriel is just another realm of Oblivion, how does one achieve CHIM?

The same way the Champion takes hold of The Shivering Isles, by mantling the Lord of that realm. All one would have to do is realize that since all in Tamriel is the creation of Lorkhan, his power resides in all things. All one would need to do is find a way to take upon the Mantle of Lorkhan and receive his power if only for a moment.

It is also believed that Akatosh himself is but another aspect of Lorkhan, as is Sheogorath and Jyggalag.

At the end of the Oblivion MQ we see Martin Septim transform into the Avatar of Akatosh. I think Martin found a way to CHIM by Mantling himself as Akatosh/Lorkhan, using this power to defeat Mehrunes Dagon. I do not believe CHIM lasts for very long, depending on the power of the individual, as Martin was lost after the defeat of Mehrunes Dagon.

The Amulet of Kings may be the artifact that allows the way to become the Lord of the daedric plane of Dawn's Beauty/Tamriel as only those that have attained CHIM (that I know of) also wielded the Amulet of Kings such as El-Estia (http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/remanada.shtml) and Tiber Septim who became Talos. Another clue is the amulets Elven name, Chim-el Adabal: the amulet of the kings of glory. It even has "chim" in its name.

If that is the case then why didn't Mankar Camoran use the amulet to achieve CHIM? The most likely reason is that he either did not know how to take the mantle of Lorkhan/Akatosh or did not do so out of respect to Mehrunes Dagon.

What of attaining CHIM now that the Amulet has been destroyed? Well, find another piece of Lorkhan. The Amulet contained the blood of Akatosh, which is Lorkhan, so all one would have to do is find another artifact such as the Heart of Lorkhan.

The disappearance of the Dwemer anyone? Lord Kagrenac was working with the Heart of Lorkhan, the heart of the world. I believe Kagrenac somehow used the Heart to take upon the Mantle of Lorkhan and then for some reason... all the Dwemer disappeared. Did Lord Kagrenac have a vision of forbidden knowledge and decide to protect his people? I believe this is so and that Kagrenac used CHIM to create another realm, like Paradise, so that his people would be safe from some unknown danger. Landfall Perhaps?

So many mysteries at once.

Mankar was not the only one calling the Aedra lairs.



But Vivec didn't invent chim. Actually the whole idea of the Psijic Endeavor, the process which may results in a state called chim, has been founded in the Velothi exodus. It started as a youthful rebellion, were the Daedra were thought of as the better and stronger ancestors and got well underway once Mephala showed Trinimac to be a lair. You can read about that in http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml#4and http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/changed_ones.shtml.



Unfortunately, Lorkhan had his heart ripped out. It makes mantling him rather precarious. Unless you have a fall guy who's acting like you to betray. Just like Tiber Septim had Arctus do to Ysmir. Of course then you're mantling Akatosh, but so is the fate of all Rebels that become Kings.

Also Lorkhan in his failed attempt created a place were mortals might reach chim, manteling him would do you no good in trying to get it yourself.



You assume here that the Amulet gives chim.



But then you assume things based on something that counters that assumption. Rather, you should be believe your assumption to be false. The Amulet of King does not give Chim.



Nah. Look at the http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/luagararticle1.shtml.

Bah. I forgot about this.

Move along folks, nothing to see here....

That's not a cannon TES book...that was a paper that forum member Luagar wrote. You can chose to disagree.

However it is important to note that the paper is not fanciful speculation, it is an explanation of the source material - anybody who seriously looks into the source material will come to the same conclusion, I just save them the trouble of rounding the sources up and making the connections themselves...

But by all means, if anybody can take all the source material and somehow make different connections and come to a decent conclusion that isn't crackpot, let them do it, I know I'll enjoy reading it.

The thing is that over the past 3-4 years that has yet to happen, nobody has offered any other decent explanation much less one that accounts for all the material we have (there's alot to account for, and the conclusion presented in that article can account for them all).

Disagree all you want, but at least have a reason to disagree other than that you just don't like the theory...

But the Dwemer are all on vacation, I swear. They're hiding from magical divination because they don't want to be disturbed. Yagrum Bagarn would tell you if he could remember.

The Dwemer dissapeared because their ties to mundus was broken, most likely the dwemer just like all the other bei9ngs in the whole of nirn have, had, a deep metaphysical connection to the heart, and if that connection is severed the dwemer just plain died, that would explain why one dwarf survived, the imortal one whose name eludes me at the moment, it makes sense, if the went to a "paradise" then ALL of them would have gone, not just the mortal ones... Think about it.... There wouldn't be so many dwemer ghost in ruins if they weren't all dead....

The dwemer ghosts we encounter died before the dissapearance.

Not neccasarily.... Is there any proof of that? Quite fankly ther's no proof to any of these ideas of their dissapearance, it's all speculation.

Granted, speculation.

But if dwemer ghosts were a product of The Disappearance, then Kagrenac and Dumac would be the most prominent ones to encounter, they should be around.

Common sense, its basic reasoning that the ghosts encountered were ones that died before Red Mountain. Common sense is always the best kind of proof, and is in fact often better than proof.

Were they not we could just ask Kagrenac what happened; that they died beforehand is further substantiated in that we know what happened to their souls - if their souls are in the Numidium, they can't be wandering around Dwemer ruins.

I'm assuming you haven't read the thread, otherwise you'd know by now that there is proof for the generally accepted theory, hence why its generally accepted...

I love you right now for this. People forget common sense too often. And I am one of them as well. Just not right now.

I'm under the understanding that the process of ghostification reduces the vast majority of people to mindless automatons bent to either one purpose or to serve their summoner. I think intelligent ghosts come about either randomly or if they have some great driving need.

Also, Dagoth Ur could've pumped Kagrenac's ghost for the required information to operate the heart and then dispersed it. After all, there are no dwemer ghosts in the sixth house bases in Dagoth Ur.

Numidium is lovely this time of year.

I don't think it's been mentioned yet in this thread that the CHIM-EL ADABAL was purpose-made to be a myth-echo of the heart of Lorkhan. It had its place in the Imperial City, which was purpose-built to be a myth-echo of the Aurbis, and with the whole apparatus the Ayleidoon were going to try to destroy the Aurbis. There are basically two ways to get out (achieve Nu-mantia) - progression through the Psijjic Endeavor (CHIM) or regression to the mythic (destruction). Mankar didn't care about CHIM because he was following the latter agenda.