Theory on lesser daedra : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:54 pm

My newest theory from researching on the Imperial library.

Lesser daedra are the "chosen form" of daedra who don't have realms. To clarify, all golden saints are part of one being, which i'll call "GiantGoldenSaint" for the example's purpose. When you banish one of the forms of the daedra, that piece of it goes back to oblivion. However, in order to exist in various forms, GiantGoldenSaint doen't have a realm. This is also why they go through the dreamsleeve regularly, they have no home to protect them from it. This would also explain the "clan" aspect of Daedric life: The clans are all part of one whole, and therefore are bound to each other. This is why GiantGoldenSaint has many forms who have changed who they are in service too, and yet no Golden saints fight. Why would one of your arms fight another? However, GiantGoldenSaint has some beef with GiantDarkSeducer. They can swich who they serve because they aren't bound to there masters.
Some lesser Daedra chose their forms with specific masters in mind, for example GiantNocturnal chose his form to service the Daedra Prince Nocturnal. Nocturnal's realm is lightless, and GiantNocturnal's form can see in the dark.
This theory boils down to that Daedra have two choices: A.) stay together and become one really [censored] super-dude or B.) Split myself into little pieces so that I can have massive numbers of weaker selves. The larger the number of pieces GiantGoldenSaint splits him/herself into, the weaker the individual will be. This is why there are fewer of the stronger Daedra.

I am wide open to criticism on this theory, and I can myself find some minor flaws.

Edit: Clarification and grammar

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:14 pm

Bit of a correction, Daedra don't go through the Dreamsleeve, that's only for Mortals of Mundus (so their souls can be recycled into a new body; the Daedra don't have this and simply will themselves into existence).

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:27 pm

Actually, yes they do. It's just that mortals go through the Dreamsleeve without feeling anything; Daedra experience it all and it's a terror for them.

Sinder Velvin: I don't know exactly how to break this to you, but -- Well -- Maybe you have better take a look at this dagger. She said -- Deyanira -- That is --

Jaciel Morgen: Aaaaaa! She is gone! GONE! I should tear your beating heart out and force you to eat it in tiny bites, one wriggling, beating bite each century! I should flay the skin from your body and hurl your living carcass into the sea of my salty tears.

Sinder Velvin: She did it for you.

Jaciel Morgen: You, mortal -- No doom so slow, no pain so tearing --

Sinder Velvin: Nothing you do will bring her back. She'll be back in her own sweet time, from what I understand about you Daedra. And for all that sweet time you can think about how little you cared for her, and how lonely you'll be without her, and how much she was willing to do for you, when you wouldn't do anything but pout and snivel.

Jaciel Morgen: What you say -- Perhaps is true. Too fair. But... You BASTARD! You TRICKED her into this, to serve your own SELFISH ends!

Sinder Velvin: No. It was her idea. I haven't got her kind of vision. Or character. I admit. I'd lie like a rug to save my skin. But I haven't got the imagination to think of a thing like she did. And it would NEVER occur to me that she might do it of her own free will. In fact, I'm sorry. And ashamed. That I helped her to do this thing.

Jaciel Morgen: Perhaps I can understand. You are a mortal. And mortals see things differently. A mortal must never regret, never feel shame, for what it does to save its life.

Sinder Velvin: Normally I'd agree with you wholeheartedly. But that's not how I feel right now. Look. She isn't really dead, is she?

Jaciel Morgen: Daedra do not really die. Not as you know death. But we can sacrifice ourselves to Oblivion. As she did. Oblivion is existence and self-awareness without the ability to see, hear, or affect the world. For an immortal it is hell -- Unspeakable pain and horror -- Absolute loss. Eventually we do return. But not all return as they were. There is sickness. Madness. Change.

Though it doesn't use the word, it's a description of what it's like for a Daedra to go through the dreamsleeve.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:19 pm

Actually, yes they do. It's just that mortals go through the Dreamsleeve without feeling anything; Daedra experience it all and it's a terror for them.

Though it doesn't use the word, it's a description of what it's like for a Daedra to go through the dreamsleeve.

No, it uses the word 'Oblivion', they go through 'Oblivion', it's quite clear, it's just the process is similar to the Dreamsleeve, minus all the pain and horror.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:32 pm

No, it uses the word 'Oblivion', they go through 'Oblivion', it's quite clear, it's just the process is similar to the Dreamsleeve, minus all the pain and horror.

Except how can Oblivion as in the void do that? The process is exactly the same. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and acts like a duck.. Then it's a duck. If it sounds like a dreamsleeve and acts like a dreamsleeve...
Also, note the phrase, "For an immortal, it is hell," describing the process they undergo and insinuating that the same process can be undergone by someone who is not immortal. Otherwise, the dialogue would have eschewed the categorizing descriptor.

If it has a soul, it goes through the dreamsleeve.
http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1000865 http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=714862&st=0&p=10316539&#entry10316539.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:30 pm

Except how can Oblivion as in the void do that? The process is exactly the same. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and acts like a duck.. Then it's a duck. If it sounds like a dreamsleeve and acts like a dreamsleeve...
Also, note the phrase, "For an immortal, it is hell," describing the process they undergo and insinuating that the same process can be undergone by someone who is not immortal. Otherwise, the dialogue would have eschewed the categorizing descriptor.

If it has a soul, it goes through the dreamsleeve.
http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1000865 http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=714862&st=0&p=10316539&#entry10316539.

I concede

It would be good if there was a clearer reference on the subject though *hint hint, nudge nudge, looks at MK*

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:58 pm

Dreamsleeve: Lesser Daedra can go there, voluntarily, to hide their mind there - that's what Jaciel did in Battlespire. Remember it's not only the recycle bin for souls, but also the "internet of souls", due to it being something connecting all (mortal?) souls. However what Daedra experience when their bodily manifestation is destroyed is the exact opposite of the Dreamsleeve: Sensory depravation, but they stay themselves (though suffer the impact of prolonged sensory depravation). The Dreamsleeve however creates the illusion of an afterlife while stripping the identity of the soul, disassembling it to create new, blank souls. To quote ThatOneGuy: If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and acts like a duck... then it can't be a tiger.

Lesser Daedra as one big being: Sorry, but I don't think that's the case. While we're talking about Battlespire, there you've got a great example of lesser Daedra of the same kind fighting against each other (the Seducers). We also have incidences of lesser Daedra changing their forms (Clavicus' dog). Additionally if they'd be big enough, wouldn't they be able to create their own realms? I don't see anything in lore supporting the "one big being" theory, unless you also consider all mortals as "one big being", due to being connected through the Dreamsleeve. Which then could even result in "everything's one big being", which depends on your intepretation if Daedra are usually part of the "soul internet" or not.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:18 pm

Lesser Daedra as one big being: Sorry, but I don't think that's the case. While we're talking about Battlespire, there you've got a great example of lesser Daedra of the same kind fighting against each other (the Seducers). We also have incidences of lesser Daedra changing their forms (Clavicus' dog). Additionally if they'd be big enough, wouldn't they be able to create their own realms? I don't see anything in lore supporting the "one big being" theory, unless you also consider all mortals as "one big being", due to being connected through the Dreamsleeve. Which then could even result in "everything's one big being", which depends on your intepretation if Daedra are usually part of the "soul internet" or not.

Not ALL lesser daedra are one being. all Hunger are one being, yet all scamps are another being

» Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:14 am

Not ALL lesser daedra are one being. all Hunger are one being, yet all scamps are another being

Yet that specification doesn't answer the criticism raised; namely, lesser Daedra of the same proposed "entity" attacking one another, and lesser Daedra that have been documented in changing forms.

While the "one big being" aka Godhead applies to everyone, it's different than implying that all of one lesser Daedra type make up a higher Daedric entity. The Godhead is a schizophrenic dreamer, for one, whereas a higher Daedric entity who splits himself apparently chooses to do so in a conscious manner. And if these Daedra ever came to the realization that they are just a droplet in the ocean of one whole, you'd think they'd have zero-summed already. (Which is an interesting tangent - can Daedra zero-sum?)

» Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:31 am

(Which is an interesting tangent - can Daedra zero-sum?)

Maybe they can't, because it goes against what they are. They are bound to predictability, unlike mortals.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:52 pm

I am and I are all we

» Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:00 am

If the OP's theory is INCORRECT, then what are lesser daedra? They can't be part of one of the 16's spheres because the Dremora are independent and have not always served Mehrunes Dagon. And yet it seems like everything else is part of an Et'Ada's sphere, or in the case of Mundus, a whole lot of Et'Ada spheres bled into each other.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:40 pm

If the OP's theory is INCORRECT, then what are lesser daedra? They can't be part of one of the 16's spheres because the Dremora are independent and have not always served Mehrunes Dagon. And yet it seems like everything else is part of an Et'Ada's sphere, or in the case of Mundus, a whole lot of Et'Ada spheres bled into each other.

Maybe they are subgradients of the et'ada? Like how the TES universe thingy (I forget its name) created Anu and Padomey to contemplate itself. And then Anu and Padomey made their own divisions... like mitosis, but each "generation" is less in power (subgradient) to its "parent."

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:35 pm

Not all Daedra of one "type" are a big hive mind..some Dremora serve the Temple in Morrowind, as one example, and the various Princes hire many of the same types as mercenaries, and depending on which Prince they serve their forms are different. All Princes employ Atronochs of varying kinds. These creatures appear to favor no master over another.

» Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:49 am

The theory is quite interesting, it might be so for some daedra, however as Hairdo Golash has pointed out, there are daedra which are quite free-lance in nature, however your description of the aureal vs. mazken seems quite appropriate, perhaps the theory stands for some daedra, but not all. Anyways i vote yes to your theory, although it doesn't universally cover all daedra it is quite good for many of them (for some reason you remind me of Numidium though, the whole giant golden saint thing)

EDIT: Forgot to add something, about the whole 'not bounded into clan argument' what if the clan itself shifted, like arms could fall off from the original GiantGoldenSaint and grow into a new (but smaller) GiantGoldenSaint, the original would become smaller, but is still a whole.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:46 pm

Your theory is interesting, if actually only finding a different name for the word 'society' and applying a collective unconscious to it. But it doesn't exactly explain why there is a rigid hierarchical society in all known intelligent lesser Daedra. Why, for instance, there is a rigid Matriarchal gender system among Saints and Seducers, or why the Dremoras don't view each echelon of Kyn as equal in their role to the 'GiantDremora'. If there was a collective unconscious among the lesser Daedra, there would be even an unconscious understanding that where it counts, they are all from the same omniconsciousness.

Additionally, it doesn't explain why individual Daedra can disobey their master and collective and act independently.

To its credit, though, it does provide a nice anologue to subcreation in the mortal world.

» Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:10 am

But it doesn't exactly explain why there is a rigid hierarchical society in all known intelligent lesser Daedra

Is there? Scamps and Xivilai don't have much of a hierarchy.

Additionally, it doesn't explain why individual Daedra can disobey their master and collective and act independently.

You ever had thoughts in the back of you your head that stuck around even if you didn't want to think them?