TEDDERS!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi.

That was slightly anti-climatic.

From your Force def. list....I like 12! It has the word "focus" in it. Expanding on it, and making some changes, a force is something that brings into from or action, either physically or metaphysically (?) other somethings. Mmm, still needs work.

And I agree with the "just because Vehk thought it was important, doesn't mean it's right" post! The dude's a crackpot poet. What else do poets write about other than love and autumn? Everyone else that has gained the powers of the Heart has been a little loopy, so why is he an exception? I don't think he's any exception, and therefore cannot be used as a source of knowledge or understanding about anything, because he is either 1) lying, or 2) crazy.

And why is Love not an emotion again? Does that make hate not an emotion too? I thought emotions were non physical sensations. I can feel love and hate, can't I? Or is this too simple a viewpoint?

The "Vehk's doesn't know what he's talking about" is getting soooooooooooooo tired.... :rolleyes:

And you're looking at Love on a very, VERY superficial level. And until you get the deeper understanding that's been mentioned more than once, you're probably never gonna understand much more of the lore. At least not the important parts.

edit: And the opposite of Love isn't hate. At least not in my opinion.

And see what http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#11 has to say about marriage. And while I hate to seem like a pseudocryptic pretentious bastard, I think it might help. I could be wrong though.

Marriage is Assassination.

I don't think we need the sermons to figure that one out. Ba-da-cha.

Which post? I only saw a post about Vivec ideals or any other philosophical offspring of the radical Prophet Veloth not being the best source material to reconstruct the important forces of rather reactionary Elven Order from.

And in that vein (and a fit of sleep-madness) I went through a looked at the Tree of Life, which contains 10 Sephirot (Or Eleven if you add in another one that sometimes replaces Keter, but we'll get to that in a second.) The Tree of Life does seems to be about opposites, because you have the Pillar of Severity and the Pillar of Mercy. Now, apply what we know of opposites from TES to this and you get something like this.

NOTE: I don't exactly present this as thourogh lore, just someone that could possible help out.

The Godhead

Padomay............................ Anu
CHIM
Sithis............................ Anuiel
LOVE
Lorkhan............................Auriel

Aurbis

Mundus

http://emeagwali.com/speeches/immortality/Qabbalah-Tree-of-Life.jpg If you need help navigating my insanity, here is a Tree of Life.

As an alternative, Aurbis can be replaced with Creation, and Mundus with Existence.

Also as an alternative, put the Godhead ABOVE where it's at right there, and put in it's place the Beggining Place.

Ohhohoho.. Tedders!!! Glad to see you around!

This thread is getting interesting...

Crown
Wisdom
Understanding
Loving Kindness
Judgement
Compassion
Triumph
Majesty
Foundation
Realm

They form the holy name of Psjjjj, or Change :turtle:

So now that we have some vague and mystical words to play with, who's gonna assign Aldmeris meanings names?

^ That post.

I still fail at seeing the "deeper understanding" of love you guys are mentioning. If you don't want to say "it's just an emotion", then why is hate only an emotion. Should I be more selective in my anolysis too, and less critical?

Anyway, I read that Sermon 11 like you said. No closer to understanding squat - a lot like if I read any passage of the Bible! (By the way, I still think the Sermons are a lot like the Bible, just more circle-talk because Vivec is trying too hard - and of course more hidden excuses for murdering Nerevar, stealing the powers of the Heart, and starting a crappy religion that was based loosly off a pre-existing one so it would be easier for the Dunmer to swallow). The number 11 was mentioned, but so what? That's like saying fire is important because of the books "A Dance in Fire".

And marriage is assassination? That's one interpretation. Another would be, "in public, act as if you like the people, but in secret, hate them". Marriage is a public affair (usually), murder is a private one (usually). I thought you were suppose to try and read between the lines when reading the Sermons, or do you guys think it's better to take it all at face value?

The people who treat love as a force have in mind a technical definition of "love" within TES lore, one which is not entirely coextensive to the different ways that word is used in common (earthly) usage. Particularly they mean "love" as it appears in http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#35, and the http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml.

However, "love" is Kirkbride, and the 11 forces are Ted Peterson. So, the inclusion of love in this discussion is either meaningless or (an attempt at) mythopeia.

As for marriage and assasination, Mephala's sphere is what?

...uh, I just saw Ted. Where's he now?

That attitude just gets old after a while. Vivec spends most of his time trying to describe things that words are ill-suited for describing. Because he's, err, a god, and saw some pretty crazy [censored]. It goes in the Sermons if it's too far out to for his crappy religion to dogmatize.

Uhhhhhh, no its not. You obviously missed everything I tried to explain to you.

The "marriage is assassination" thing helps explain the deeper meaning of Love, a unifying force that actually created the Aurbis; it eliminates the illusion of self in the world because the self is part of one big entity. You'll never understand this until you open your mind. And the Sermons are directed at the Nerevarine(s) more than anything, to be honest.

One interpretation? Vivec said it was. And I am reading between the lines: that's how I (and others) know that Love is a force, not an emotion, something you're not understanding because you yourself are taking things at face value.

I would only call it meaningless if Ted actually had a full list in mind and/or planned on doing something with it. Otherwise the Eleven Forces are abandoned lore with no real direction, ready to be assimilated in the greater metaphysics, most of which are Kirkbridian (is that a word?).

I don't know, but then, I'm not suppose to know - because that's Mephala's deal.

Interesting take on the Sermons though. I never saw them as his....place to put things that are hard to express. More like his....place to put things that he wants to express, but not openly. He cloaks his motives in his words, and not his words in his motives (to me at least, maybe you see it differently).

And not to sound like a jerk, but all that "God is love" stuff sounds very Bible to me. And while it is possible to deify love (i.e. make it out to be a higher power, and not just an emotion), I don't see why it cannot be done with hate also. You might argue that hate never created anything, as love did, and I see that point as valid. But hate can fuel ambition too.

I wouldn't call hate the opposite of love. I think conflict works better for that place. :wub:

:turtle:

You forgot Da'at. Techically, though, it's just a different way to look at Keter.

I don't think you can apply the actual Tree of Life to TES. You can use the set up (which is already there) though. But with the Tree of Life, you can't forget Ein Sof.

Read Plato's Symposium. Think I linked it in this thread too. And this was before the Bible, too, written in 385 BCE, literally centuries before the Bible was. And hate's an emotion. If anything, you mean "conflict," as mentioned.

How do you come to the placement of CHIM and LOVE in the chart, why do you place them in those particular spots? :huh:

:turtle:

God is the undivided universe- totality. Love is the secret to holding the mutually antagonistic shards of existence together. You must live them as you love yourself so there can be no difference between them.

There.

Men have called me mad; but the question is not yet settled, whether madness is or is not the loftiest intelligence?whether much that is glorious?whether all that is profound?does not spring from disease of thought?from moods of mind exalted at the expense of the general intellect.

E.A. Poe, Eleanora

You know, I once read somewhere that Tedders is the Greatest Madman Alive. Or something to that effect. I believe it was the Imperial Library.

Maybe this DOES boil down to Numerology, to give us all a Headache.


So if All Was STASIS and CHANGE came along to set everything in Motion, would that not make CHANGE the Holier of the two? For Without it Man and Mer would nor Could ever be? Would not the concept of holiness only apply to a Mortal standpoint, when before there were Mortals, all were gods?


No offense to Tedders is meant.

That's the matter of perspective. Note how the Altmer hate Lorkhan (Change).