Puzzled by Sealed Gates : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Sat May 28, 2011 4:39 pm

They may be something covered several times, and if so I apologize, but there's something I don't quite understand, and I'm sure people here can explain it for me.

Since the Septim line has ended, and, to my understanding, those of the Dragon Blood died out with Martin Septim, thus ending the Alessian Pact, then, correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the gates of Oblivion eventually re-open once the effect of the climactic battle between Mehrunes Dagon and an avatar of Akatosh wears off? (Assuming it ever will.)

» Sat May 28, 2011 6:52 pm

Here's how I understand it:

The barriers against Oblivion was a function of White-Gold Tower. For any of the Towers in TES to work, they need to be linked to their respective Stone (the Amulet of Kings, in this case); in the case of White-Gold Tower, this link was created by one of the Dragonborn using the Amulet to ignite the Dragonfires.

The way I see it, what Martin did was merge his blood with the Amulet, and then when the Avatar of Akatosh turned to stone, he essentially merged with the ground of the Imperial City (and at the cite of the Dragonfires, no less). This all created a permanent bond between the Stone and the Tower, so that it doesn't have to be periodically renewed by a Septim.

Of course, there's a fair chance that if someone decided to smash the Statue of Akatosh to pieces, that the whole thing would go to hell again; but until then things should be fine.

» Sun May 29, 2011 3:48 am

The barriers against Oblivion was a function of White-Gold Tower.

Remember that Oblvion happened after the enchantments on Lorkhan's Heart in Red Tower were removed.

» Sat May 28, 2011 5:08 pm

Indeed...for the barriers between Oblivion and Mundus to be most strong, all seven Towers must stand.

Even if a large majority of them are intact, however, most invasions are impossible.

When Uriel Septim died, White Gold essentially became inactive for a time as he was its Stone.

Martin sacrificed himself, but in doing so created a new tower or at least a new stone. The Akatosh statue pretty much serves the same purpose as a living Septim heir would have served.

» Sat May 28, 2011 6:06 pm

Martin sacrificed himself, but in doing so created a new tower or at least a new stone. The Akatosh statue pretty much serves the same purpose as a living Septim heir would have served.

That certainly seems to be the impression I got. And that would seem to make sense, if the avatar of Akatosh is going to turn into a huge statue after defeating Mehrunes Dagon this certainly must serve some reason beyond decoration. And now that Bethesda has resolved the Daedric invasion plot, I don't think we'll be seeing it again soon, they need to find some other threat to save the world from next time, so the gates will stay closed, this just offers a reason for it to do so beyond "the plot says so!"

» Sun May 29, 2011 3:09 am

Martin sacrificed himself, but in doing so created a new tower or at least a new stone. The Akatosh statue pretty much serves the same purpose as a living Septim heir would have served.

I thought he re-negotiated the contract regarding the Dragon Fires and stuff. :confused:

» Sun May 29, 2011 1:35 am

One thing I don't understand: If oblivion gates are now impossible thanks to MY efforts, How is the gate to The Shivering Isles possible? Its oblivion, just sheogoraths realm, not mehrunes dagon's. IT MAKES NO SENSE! Its supposed to be "impossible"

I assume the next game may be based on this fact?

» Sat May 28, 2011 9:38 pm

One thing I don't understand: If oblivion gates are now impossible thanks to MY efforts, How is the gate to The Shivering Isles possible? Its oblivion, just sheogoraths realm, not mehrunes dagon's. IT MAKES NO SENSE! Its supposed to be "impossible"

I assume the next game may be based on this fact?

As Haskil says at the beginning of the expansion, it breaks none of the rules. The gate to the Shivering Isles only lets mortals go back and forth, it doesn't permit daedra to enter the mortal world, which is the point of the barriers.

» Sat May 28, 2011 12:49 pm

But it is STILL a gate to oblivion, A perfect stable gate, and its noted to be impossible. Even if deadra are not coming out of it its still a creation of a deadra lord. Just because deadra don't come out of it dosent mean anything! Its a whole contradiction with the lore!

» Sun May 29, 2011 12:52 am

and the barriors prevent gates from opening thats how it keeps deadra out. Why do you think you can still summon daedra after the story line? The barrior stops gates, not daedra.

» Sun May 29, 2011 1:09 am

and the barriors prevent gates from opening thats how it keeps deadra out. Why do you think you can still summon daedra after the story line? The barrior stops gates, not daedra.

They do often say that mortals were "summoned" into the realm in SI. Called by Sheogorath, Xedillian, or the prospect of plunder, in all three explanations, they use the word summoned.

» Sat May 28, 2011 4:51 pm

I thought he re-negotiated the contract regarding the Dragon Fires and stuff. :confused:

If those were negotiations he was having with Mehrunes Dagon over the ruins of the Temple of the One, they're a new kind of negotiation.

Perhaps this sheds new light on Sotha Sil's "negotiations" from 2920...now I'm imagining him fighting a last man standing duel with the Daedra Lords to keep them out of Mundus. Although certain remarks he made lead me to believe a big orgy was involved.

Rain's Hand
Book Four of 2920, The Last Year of the First Era
3 Rain's Hand, 2920
Coldharbour, Oblivion

Sotha Sil proceeded as quickly as he could through the blackened halls of the palace, half-submerged in brackish water. All around him, nasty gelatinous creatures scurried into the reeds, bursts of white fire lit up the upper arches of the hall before disappearing, and smells assaulted him, rancid death one moment, sweet flowered perfume the next. Several times he had visited the Daedra princes in their Oblivion, but every time, something different awaited him.

He knew his purpose, and refused to be distracted.

Eight of the more prominent Daedra princes were awaiting him in the half-melted, domed room. Azura, Prince of Dusk and Dawn; Boethiah, Prince of Plots; Herma-Mora, Daedra of Knowledge; Hircine, the Hunter; Malacath, God of Curses; Mehrunes Dagon, Prince of Disaster; Molag Bal, Prince of Rage; Sheogorath, the Mad One.

Above them, the sky cast tormented shadows upon the meeting.
5 Rain's Hand, 2920
The Isle of Artaeum, Summurset

Sotha Sil's voice cried out, echoing from the cave, "Move the rock!"

Immediately, the initiates obeyed, rolling aside the great boulder that blocked the entrance to the Dreaming Cavern. Sotha Sil emerged, his face smeared with ash, weary. He felt he had been away for months, years, but only a few days had transpired. Lilatha took his arm to help him walk, but he refused her help with a kind smile and a shake of his head.

"Were you ... successful?" she asked.

"The Daedra princes I spoke with have agreed to our terms," he said flatly. "Disasters such as befell Gilverdale should be averted. Only through certain intermediaries such as witches or sorcerers will they answer the call of man and mer."

"And what did you promise them in return?" asked the Nord boy Welleg.

"The deals we make with Daedra," said Sotha Sil, continuing on to Iachesis's palace to meet with the Master of the Psijic Order. "Should not be discussed with the innocent."

Bom chicka wow wow

» Sun May 29, 2011 4:19 am

@MoraCrab - The SI Gate breaks none of the rules. It is an invitation, nothing more, nothing less. It poses no threat to the existence of Tamriel and thus can exist.

» Sat May 28, 2011 8:51 pm

If those were negotiations he was having with Mehrunes Dagon over the ruins of the Temple of the One, they're a new kind of negotiation.

Perhaps this sheds new light on Sotha Sil's "negotiations" from 2920...now I'm imagining him fighting a last man standing duel with the Daedra Lords to keep them out of Mundus. Although certain remarks he made lead me to believe a big orgy was involved.

Bom chicka wow wow

Although, it is ironic that the OP's name is Sotha-Sil and he/she knows little regarding the terms and conditions for Daedra invasion of the mundus. :lol:

Who knows, maybe Martin made some deal with Akatosh or whomver started this whole "Blood of the Dragon, Amulet of Kings, and Dragon Fires" ritual. You know, on the side, when the PC was fetching Martin his next cup of tea from Ayleid ruins.

» Sat May 28, 2011 12:27 pm

One thing I don't understand: If oblivion gates are now impossible thanks to MY efforts, How is the gate to The Shivering Isles possible? Its oblivion, just sheogoraths realm, not mehrunes dagon's. IT MAKES NO SENSE! Its supposed to be "impossible"

I assume the next game may be based on this fact?

The gates are still allowed, but no Daedra are allowed to come through. Dagon shut down his gates, basically in the act of retreating.

But it is STILL a gate to oblivion, A perfect stable gate, and its noted to be impossible. Even if deadra are not coming out of it its still a creation of a deadra lord. Just because deadra don't come out of it dosent mean anything! Its a whole contradiction with the lore!

Just because Daedra aren't coming out means everything.

and the barriers prevent gates from opening thats how it keeps deadra out. Why do you think you can still summon daedra after the story line? The barrior stops gates, not daedra.

The barriers prevent Daedra from entering of their own free will*. Gates ease that process by anchoring the realm directly to Mundas, but Daedra could still enter without gates anyway (For example the Aurorians.) The reason summoning works is because they aren't entering of their own free will.

*There still is a contradicting of Lore, as soon as the player become Seogorath then they wouldn't be allowed to re-enter Mundas through the portal.

» Sun May 29, 2011 12:09 am

Reason the summonings work:

When you summon, you project your own will into the realm of Oblivion, and drag a Daedra with you upon your return. Your physical body does not enter, but your magical will enters the realm, and brings back the Daedra.

Once your will is no longer exerted upon that Daedra, they dissipate to dust and return to Oblivion. Always have, because what tied them to Mundus stopped tying them to Mundus.

However, Daedric will/spirit/magic cannot punch through to Mundus of its own accord. The Mythic Dawn had to use rituals to open the greater gates; the lesser gates were made with sigil stone rituals in Oblivion likely, but I would not be surprised if many came to be through some form of mortal, Tamrielic aid.

The Sheogorath gate may have been opened by a ritual performed by one of his blessed Madmen on Mundus.

It's a one way street; Those of Mundus can pass, but those of Oblivion shall not pass, unless accompanied by one from Mundus.

» Sat May 28, 2011 1:04 pm

Once your will is no longer exerted upon that Daedra, they dissipate to dust and return to Oblivion. Always have, because what tied them to Mundus stopped tying them to Mundus.

And yet the summoned thing can revolt against its summoner, which one would assume is a breaking of the user's will. It may be the summoner's will that draws them to Mundus but there must be other factors in their staying... :cheat:

:turtle:

» Sat May 28, 2011 3:37 pm

Thank you very much everyone, I think I understand now.

» Sat May 28, 2011 3:05 pm

And yet the summoned thing can revolt against its summoner, which one would assume is a breaking of the user's will. It may be the summoner's will that draws them to Mundus but there must be other factors in their staying... :cheat:

:turtle:

One's will might be the factor in 'binding' them here, but that doesn't mean that the conjurer has enough concentration left-over to make sure the summoned daedra doesn't decide to wear his/her guts for garters.

I think there needs to be some clarification about how this process is described in the lore, and what you see due to restricted gameplay mechanics. From my understanding, there would probably be more involved in the summoning of a lesser daedra than simply casting a spell. I vaguely recall that there are contracts involved - like a good old-fashion demon summoning, minus the pentagrams and selling your soul bit. Not unlike the methods used to 'summon' a Daedric Prince on his/her summoning day - their favorite items, the right words, that sort of thing. Of course, it might be easier to get a Lesser Daedra's attention.

I wonder what they think about it - do enjoy popping into the mundus and killing things, or do they resent leaving Oblivion and 'helping' a mortal? Or, is there always the thrill that the mortal's strength isn't enough to keep the daedra from turning on its summoner? What do the lesser daedra get in return?

» Sat May 28, 2011 11:12 pm

Perhaps the lesser Daedra get temporary freedom from the insanities of their higher ordered Daedra when summoned, and a chance at doing what ever the bloody hell they please if the human is weak?

» Sat May 28, 2011 11:49 pm

Perhaps the lesser Daedra get temporary freedom from the insanities of their higher ordered Daedra when summoned, and a chance at doing what ever the bloody hell they please if the human is weak?

http://uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Huleen%27s_Hut