Harrald Harry Breeks : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Sat May 28, 2011 12:39 pm

Hans the Fox: a vulpine character of Greater Betony. According to the Seventh Chronicle of Alcaire, he was first met at the base of a burnt aspen tree where the ruthless Direnni autocrat of Cybiades had been hung by the Provisoire a year before. Called Itkuinkettu by the Bjoulsaaset, or the Courser of Rivers, he divided the terrain of High Rock at odd and intersecting angles, breaking the borders of the lordships and baronies to perturb the elves of Balfiera. The Direnni can think only in linear terms.

Of Harrald Hairy-Breeks we cannot speak, but to say that a north wind blows through his name. The undulations of Snow Throat were his doing or undoing.

As to the rest, many scholars have spent their lives piecing together the paths of the ancient heroes, none successfully. Orsede claims that worlds bend in the presence of the Shezzarine. Maybe he is right.

Tam! RUGH!

» Sun May 29, 2011 12:56 am

Yes, that doesn't look very bull-ish. Though the shackles make sense :shrug:

So that is, in fact, Alessia? What a strange dress...

its what some artists (likely 3rd era) though of them. i'd say its about as accurate as medieval depictions of adam & eve.

» Sat May 28, 2011 4:00 pm

Why do I feel like I should know you Temple Zero? Regardless, thank you very much for the descriptions, as soon as I decipher that first one I'll let you know

I'm too tired right now...

» Sat May 28, 2011 2:17 pm

Well then, serious planning has begun, and I have returned with several more questions. I thank you all for your help thus far, and ask for your continued assistance:

1. That chapter four of the Song is really raising more questions than it answers

I'll annotate my questions in, if you don't mind

[Pelinal] drove the sorcerer armies past the Niben, claiming all the eastern lands for the rebellion of the Paravania, and Kyne had to send her rain to wash the blood from the villages and forts that no longer flew Ayleid banners, for the armies of Men needed to make camps of them as they went forward. ...[and] he broke the doors open for the prisoners of the Vahtache with the Slave-Queen flying on Morihaus above them, and Men called her Al-Esh for the first time.

So Pelinal proclaimed all land east of the Niben as belonging to humans. Does this extend to the sea, or just until we hit Argonians or Dunmer (or they would be Chimer at this point, wouldn't they?) So Pelinal joined in somewhere between Sardovar Leed and Vahtache, okay.

He entered the Gate at ... to win back the hands of the Thousand-Strong of Sedor (a tribe now unknown but famous in those days), which the Ayleids had stolen in the night, two thousand hands that he brought back in a wagon made of demon-bone, whose wheels trailed the sound of women when ill at heart... [Text lost]...

What does it mean by hands? Some kind of weapon? So the Ayleids stole the other Ayleids' "hands", and Pelinal was getting them back for the rebellion?

[And after] the first Pogrom, which consolidated the northern holdings for the men-of-'kreath, he stood with white hair gone brown with elfblood at the Bridge of Heldon, where Perrif's falconers had sent for the Nords, and they, looking at him, said that Shor had returned, but he spat at their feet for profaning that name.

Pogrom? Some kind of meeting? And where is Heldon? There are no major river systems between Sedon and Ninendava, so would that then be some kind of mountain pass? And at this point the Nords had come to help?

He led them anyway into the heart of the hinterland west, to drive the Ayleids inward, towards the Tower of White-Gold, a slow retreating circle that could not understand the power of Man's sudden liberty, and what fury-idea that brought. His mace crushed the Thundernachs that Umaril sent as harriers on the rebellion's long march back south and east, and carried Morihaus-Breath-of-Kyne to Zuathas the Clever-Cutting Man (a nede with a keptu name) for healing when the bull had fallen to a volley of bird beaks.

Okay, so Morihaus got hurt fighting Umaril's bird minions, and Pelinal brought him to this "Clever Cutting Man" for healing. I have a rough idea what a nede is, but what is a keptu?

And, of course, at the Council of Skiffs, where all of the Paravania's armies and all of the Nords shook with fear at the storming of White-Gold, so much so that the Al-Esh herself counseled delay, Pelinal grew furious, and made names of Umaril, and made names of what cowards he thought he saw around him, and then made for the Tower by himself, for Pelinal often acted without thought.

Council of Skiffs? Sounds Nordic, what is it? Some kind of war council before the attack on White Gold tower, where everyone wanted to delay and that got Pelinal mad? So he went in for his famous duel with Umaril, got it.

So that covers all of part four, but now I have a few quandries concerning part three as well. Not as many, but still enough to require similar annotation:

Gordhaur the Shaper's head was smashed upon the goat-faced altar of Ninendava, and in his wisdom Pelinal said a small plague spell to keep that evil from reforming by welkynd-magic.

Goat faced altar? Like a goat skull :blink: Crazy Ayleids. So the Ayleid kings could "reform" themselves with their magic? What other crazy powers do they have?

Later that season, Pelinal slew Hadhuul on the granite steps of Ceya-Tar, the Fire King's spears knowing their first refute. For a time, no weapon of the Ayleids could pierce his armor, which Pelinal admitted was unlike any crafted by men, but would say no more even when pressed.

Whoah, any speculation on that armor comment? I understand the Hadhuul deal, but what could his armor be then? Perhaps those crusader artifacts you get in Oblivion?

When Huna, whom Pelinal raised from grain-slave to hoplite and loved well, took death from an arrowhead made from the beak of Celethelel the Singer, the Whitestrake went on his first Madness.

So this would be Pelinal's squire of sorts? Any info on him? So who is Celethelel the Singer, and who is firing arrows at Pelinal? Oh, duh, the Ayleids, I suspect And if this was his first Madness, when was his second?

He wrought destruction from Narlemae all the way to Celediil, and erased those lands from the maps of Elves and Men, and all things in them, and Perrif was forced to make sacrifice to the Gods to keep them from leaving the earth in their disgust.

Okay, do we know where those are? It seems they are gone now, but I'm guessing they would be somewhere near Ceya-Tar, the last place that is mentioned. I think I read somewhere that Alessia somehow heals the void he made in the landscape, but I could be mistaken.

Well, I have questions about the second part too, but I'll save those for later

Thank you very much for any answers you can give :goodjob:

» Sat May 28, 2011 3:26 pm

By "hands", I've assumed they're literally hands that were hacked off the humans by the Ayleids. A second possibility is the sense of "workers", meaning he brought back the slave workers, but to me it's more likely that the Ayleids had committed the atrocity of cutting off hands.

Pogroms in our world's history were when Russians, Poles, and others would periodically descend upon the Jewish ghettos, sacking them or at least [censored] the women and randomly killing. The Pogrom of the song is probably the same thing, genocide against the elves.

It's been speculated that the armor was from the future. This could be anything from the plate armor of the Third Era to the armor of a more distant era in the future.

» Sat May 28, 2011 8:08 pm

By "hands", I've assumed they're literally hands that were hacked off the humans by the Ayleids. A second possibility is the sense of "workers", meaning he brought back the slave workers, but to me it's more likely that the Ayleids had committed the atrocity of cutting off hands.

Pogroms in our world's history were when Russians, Poles, and others would periodically descend upon the Jewish ghettos, sacking them or at least [censored] the women and randomly killing. The Pogrom of the song is probably the same thing, genocide against the elves.

It's been speculated that the armor was from the future. This could be anything from the plate armor of the Third Era to the armor of a more distant era in the future.

Ah, so the hands were the slaves of the Sedor Ayleids? Were the Sedor Ayleids good or bad then? What good are literal hands to Pelinal and the rebellion? I would think he means workers, personally.

I see, that would make sense. I had thought it was some Tes word, okay. So it was just a ransacking of elvish homes.

Well, there we have a problem. The way I am trying to write it, Pelinal can't time travel. Cool as it may be, it can really ruin some of the story :shrug: But if he were to time travel (should I submit to the Terminator lore), it is just sporadic disappearances, not controlled powers, correct?

New questions then, what are the men-of-'kreath? And what kind of technology as far as weapons and armor were available then? Mail armor? Crossbows? Catapults? I'm afraid my knowledge of medieval warfare technology is not very good, especially having been skewed by computer games

Oh, and how could I forget to thank you for your help

EDIT: Thanks for the tip, Alaisiagae, but I think we're going to refrain from having Pelinal face [censored] a bunch of elves. That's Vivec's job

But in all seriousness, I'm glad we can paint such a dark picture with murder and violence. War shouldn't be sweetened with honor, the humans were as bad as the elves, and fought out of hate. It'll really spice things up a bit in the story.

PS The Vinegar cult thing is really starting to freak me out. It was the first time I saw a thread closed for cult activity :rofl:

» Sun May 29, 2011 1:37 am

I see, that would make sense. I had thought it was some Tes word, okay. So it was just a ransacking of elvish homes.

And killing, and beating, and forcing themselves sixually on the elves, too, I'd imagine. I mean, really, there are no "good guys" in all this Ayleid-Nede mess.

» Sun May 29, 2011 3:10 am

And killing, and beating, and forcing themselves sixually on the elves, too, I'd imagine. I mean, really, there are no "good guys" in all this Ayleid-Nede mess.

The Ayleids certainly used the humans for pleasure, as well, according to Keye's novel.

I don't recall the chapter/page but it was said the human slaves were for labor and for pleasure.

I had never considered that before... I always read "slave" in the sense of forced labor, but in the real world there's a six slave trade as well and it's only logical that wherever slavery exists this form of it does as well.

Of Harrald Hairy-Breeks we cannot speak, but to say that a north wind blows through his name. The undulations of Snow Throat were his doing or undoing.

That ability seems very familiar.

» Sun May 29, 2011 3:19 am

The Ayleid kings were by all means masochists. Where do you think Al-Esh learned to love bulls?

» Sun May 29, 2011 1:49 am

the ayleids used humans for labor, for six, for getting directions, for decoration, for food, for prayer...

and i think you mean sadists

» Sat May 28, 2011 9:39 pm

I hate to be a bother, but I really need some of those above questions answered. I'm trying to make my story lore friendly, but I'm afraid if I try to interpret all that myself I'll get something wrong :emberrass: So I would really appreciate some help, and thanks to everyone that has helped me so far

» Sat May 28, 2011 4:26 pm

pelinal is driven crazy by the contradictions of his personality and his intense hate for the elves. he acts before thinking, often endangering the life of his companions. he is able to love like everyone else, and attaches to people in his party (some of whom die). He is never quite sure who he is.

I apologize for barging in your thread, Darkom, but Lady N?s posts were very interesting and i have a question:

I like the way you explain the root of pelinal?s insanity, but do you get it from your own speculations or is there a solid source. I mean the part about "the contradictions of his personality". You mean that he?s confused about wether he?s man or god? or a man/construct dilemma?

Or just that the simple fact that he?s the incarnation of Lorkhan, and therefore the AE is enough to drive him bat[censored] crazy?

I get that his deep hate for the Ayleids drives him crazy and makes him go into those rampages, maybe he cant handle those emotions becuase he is an Ada and not a human?

Once again, sorry for messing with your thread, Dark

» Sat May 28, 2011 5:32 pm

You mean that he?s confused about wether he?s man or god? or a man/construct dilemma?

Worse: he's in fact two gods and can't decide which one he is. And to make matters worse, they hate each other's guts. You'll find a number of instances in the Song of Pelinal where Pelinal is shown referring to this "other half" (volume 8) or in fact addressing it (volume 6).

» Sat May 28, 2011 1:24 pm

i based it mostly on the songs. at times he appears to be rational, even cautious (his reaction to Mor loving Ales), but at other times he goes bat[censored] and kills thousands of mer just for having pointy ears. i believe its because of the whole shezarine deal, but it could work just as well with him being a regular, albeit powerful, human. questions like "is it ok to kill if they have killed first" or "is it ok to kill to prevent further enslavement" could lead to some serious internal conflicts.

Dark, i'll get to your questions a bit later today. they obviously require quite a bit of typing.

» Sat May 28, 2011 7:13 pm

Worse: he's in fact two gods and can't decide which one he is. And to make matters worse, they hate each other's guts. You'll find a number of instances in the Song of Pelinal where Pelinal is shown referring to this "other half" (volume 8) or in fact addressing it (volume 6).

Yes! Thank you, I had noticed those points when i was re-reading the song but chose to ignore it, the aka/shor sunder thing.

Thank you too for the reply Lady N! Sometimes i forget to read with a broader perspective

» Sat May 28, 2011 3:58 pm

? Does this extend to the sea, or just until we hit Argonians or Dunmer (or they would be Chimer at this point, wouldn't they?)
It extends to the end of Ayleid lands in the East Niben, so around the Velothi mountains and Argonia. It is obviously not the same border as today's provinces, but pretty close. Yes, they were at that time Chimer.

? What does it mean by hands? Some kind of weapon? So the Ayleids stole the other Ayleids' "hands", and Pelinal was getting them back for the rebellion?
Physical hands, the type with fingers. Notice how they were the "thousand strong" but he brought back two thousand hands. the Thousand Strong of Sedor were likely slaves, or perhaps an independent Nedic peoples living in Sedor (being that they are referred to as a tribe)

? And where is Heldon? There are no major river systems between Sedon and Ninendava, so would that then be some kind of mountain pass? And at this point the Nords had come to help.
Heldon is somewhere up north, we dont know any more than that. Based on the proposed location of the Men of Kreath (discussed below), it could be up in what is now Skyrim (though I think its more likely that its ruins have now simply been lost). It could indeed reside in a pass, or the bridge could simply be a bridge between two parts of the city or something. Yes, this was where the Nords agreed to help the Rebelion.

? I have a rough idea what a nede is, but what is a keptu?
There are two definitions of a Nede. On one hand, "Nede" (and "Nedic" as above) is the general term used to refer to the indiginous tribes of Tamriel. It is also a specific tribe of these peoples. The Keptu are another tribe of men.

?Council of Skiffs? Sounds Nordic, what is it?
A skiff is a small boat. The Council of Skiffs is a meeting of the Rebellion forces, who were likely on ships to cross the Rumare, before the storming of the White Gold.

?Goat faced altar? Like a goat skull Crazy Ayleids. So the Ayleid kings could "reform" themselves with their magic? What other crazy powers do they have?
"Goat-faced" could also mean that it was carved in the general shape of a goat's head. No other "crazy powers" are specified, but the Ayleid lords were powerful sorcerers, and had pacts with Daedra in some cases.

?Whoah, any speculation on that armor comment?
The armor from KotN is his. Its full on plate, something that was totally new to the Nedes.

?So this would be Pelinal's squire of sorts? Any info on him? So who is Celethelel the Singer, and who is firing arrows at Pelinal? Oh, duh, the Ayleids, I suspect And if this was his first Madness, when was his second?
Not sure if he was a squire or not, but he was a warrior and a good friend. There is no other info on him, or on Celethelel. In case of names and places, your best bet is to use TIL's search. if nothing else comes up, we probably dont know anything else on the subject. His "madness" is the berserker elf-killing rampages he went on. There were probably more than two of them.

?Okay, do we know where those are?
It says they were erased from maps....so no.

?The way I am trying to write it, Pelinal can't time travel.
He comes from the future because he is an Ada, time doesn't really have much meaning to a god (especially if he is the crazy schizophrenic time god who just recently got his act together and started being linear). He doesn't travel through time other than to come to help Alessia (and really thats not time travel either, since he never existed in the future)

?what are the men-of-'kreath?
We don't know for certain, but it has been speculated that they are the tribe from around Falkreath (south-west Skyrim). Their territory could therefore extend from there into Hammerfell and Cyrod as well.

?And what kind of technology as far as weapons and armor were available then? Mail armor? Crossbows? Catapults?
Bronze age to Roman for the Ayleids, Paleolithic to Bronze for the Rebellion (ignoring magic and stuff for both peoples). The Ayleids probably has scale mail and maybe limited plate (not solid chunks of iron like late medieval), the Nedes has leather and what ever they could scavenge. No to crossbows, and probably No to catapults (the Ayleids could just as well use magic)

» Sat May 28, 2011 1:44 pm

I apologize for barging in your thread, Darkom, but Lady N?s posts were very interesting and i have a question:

Don't worry, I'm glad you are asking those questions here rather than a whole new thread. I suppose you got the answers you needed then?

Wow, thanks for all that reply, Lady Nerevar

I didn't expect that much, thanks, I'll just annotate then.

? Does this extend to the sea, or just until we hit Argonians or Dunmer (or they would be Chimer at this point, wouldn't they?)
It extends to the end of Ayleid lands in the East Niben, so around the Velothi mountains and Argonia. It is obviously not the same border as today's provinces, but pretty close. Yes, they were at that time Chimer.

Okay, good. Just checking. I already looked up the Chimer bit myself, and am debating whether or not to include them in the story.

? What does it mean by hands? Some kind of weapon? So the Ayleids stole the other Ayleids' "hands", and Pelinal was getting them back for the rebellion?
Physical hands, the type with fingers. Notice how they were the "thousand strong" but he brought back two thousand hands. the Thousand Strong of Sedor were likely slaves, or perhaps an independent Nedic peoples living in Sedor (being that they are referred to as a tribe)

Okay, so they were humans, and it was literally their hands? As in still attached to the humans, or cut off?

? And where is Heldon? There are no major river systems between Sedon and Ninendava, so would that then be some kind of mountain pass? And at this point the Nords had come to help.
Heldon is somewhere up north, we dont know any more than that. Based on the proposed location of the Men of Kreath (discussed below), it could be up in what is now Skyrim (though I think its more likely that its ruins have now simply been lost). It could indeed reside in a pass, or the bridge could simply be a bridge between two parts of the city or something. Yes, this was where the Nords agreed to help the Rebelion.

So they decided to help at the bridge of Heldon, somewhere in the northern mountains. So what you are saying is it could be any kind of bridge up in that general area?

? I have a rough idea what a nede is, but what is a keptu?
There are two definitions of a Nede. On one hand, "Nede" (and "Nedic" as above) is the general term used to refer to the indiginous tribes of Tamriel. It is also a specific tribe of these peoples. The Keptu are another tribe of men.

So all these tribes I read about in the song are groups of humans. Were they free, or captured by Ayleid already?

?Council of Skiffs? Sounds Nordic, what is it?
A skiff is a small boat. The Council of Skiffs is a meeting of the Rebellion forces, who were likely on ships to cross the Rumare, before the storming of the White Gold.

Ah, I do recall that now. So they met on boats to discuss the storming of white tower, I believe I clarified that myself a little while ago as well. Thanks.

?Goat faced altar? Like a goat skull Crazy Ayleids. So the Ayleid kings could "reform" themselves with their magic? What other crazy powers do they have?
"Goat-faced" could also mean that it was carved in the general shape of a goat's head. No other "crazy powers" are specified, but the Ayleid lords were powerful sorcerers, and had pacts with Daedra in some cases.

I see, so they are just strong spellcasters and Daedra worshippers. But they also worshipped the Aedra, judging on the fact that the Eight were based on Ayleid and Nordic gods, correct?

?Whoah, any speculation on that armor comment?
The armor from KotN is his. Its full on plate, something that was totally new to the Nedes.

Alright, I pretty much guessed that myself as well. So it is a futuristic armor, then? Well, I don't really like him travelling through time in the story, but it could have happened before it started. Or it could be a gift from the gods.

?So this would be Pelinal's squire of sorts? Any info on him? So who is Celethelel the Singer, and who is firing arrows at Pelinal? Oh, duh, the Ayleids, I suspect And if this was his first Madness, when was his second?
Not sure if he was a squire or not, but he was a warrior and a good friend. There is no other info on him, or on Celethelel. In case of names and places, your best bet is to use TIL's search. if nothing else comes up, we probably dont know anything else on the subject. His "madness" is the berserker elf-killing rampages he went on. There were probably more than two of them.

But this was his first madness then? I see, so it's time to make stuff up about them, eh? Alright, my favorite part.

?Okay, do we know where those are?
It says they were erased from maps....so no.

Just asking, I thought there might be another general reference or detective work we could do. I'll guesstimate their location then, thanks.

?The way I am trying to write it, Pelinal can't time travel.
He comes from the future because he is an Ada, time doesn't really have much meaning to a god (especially if he is the crazy schizophrenic time god who just recently got his act together and started being linear). He doesn't travel through time other than to come to help Alessia (and really thats not time travel either, since he never existed in the future)

Wait, what? So he just kind of materialized on Tamriel for Alessia's sake? So that's what it means to be an avatar, then? He is litererally an answer to her prayers.

?what are the men-of-'kreath?
We don't know for certain, but it has been speculated that they are the tribe from around Falkreath (south-west Skyrim). Their territory could therefore extend from there into Hammerfell and Cyrod as well.

Okay, so just another tribe. I hate to be a bother, but it there any way you could make map of the general area of these guys? I understand if you're busy, but I am having some trouble finding these guys. A link to the explanation page would be useful too. Thanks.

?And what kind of technology as far as weapons and armor were available then? Mail armor? Crossbows? Catapults?
Bronze age to Roman for the Ayleids, Paleolithic to Bronze for the Rebellion (ignoring magic and stuff for both peoples). The Ayleids probably has scale mail and maybe limited plate (not solid chunks of iron like late medieval), the Nedes has leather and what ever they could scavenge. No to crossbows, and probably No to catapults (the Ayleids could just as well use magic)

Alright, thanks. So it's like the barbarians versus the Roman empire? Plus magic

Looking back at some of these questions, it kind of makes me feel like some were a bit of common sense stuff :blink: Not really sure why I asked, just to clarify I suppose :shrug:

Thanks again, Lady N, I really appreciate the help

But what of the few questions you didn't answer? Do they just have no answer, or were you just crunched for time? I understand I'm being a little greedy, but these are the kinds of things I want to be certain on, to be as lore friendly as possible. Thanks a lot, I appreciate the help :goodjob:

» Sat May 28, 2011 12:31 pm

the hands were cut off since they all fit in a single cart. a symbolic gesture of dominance, as well as a physical preventative action. i'd love to make a map, but the problem is that we have next to no information on the origin of the tribes. they were concentrated around cyrod and the surrounding areas, mostly, but beyond that little is known. not all of the members of the tribes were enslaved, but all of the tribes had members among the slaves. yes, the ayleids worshiped aedra.

not sure what questions i didnt answer, could you read those back to me?