eh, more you you combine pure entropy with pure stasis, and the combination of the two yields varying amounts of stasis and entropy, but never perfect entropy and stasis.

Second law is broken though. Void and Magicka can apparently be unmixed. The whole Gray Maybe at the start turned into Aetherius and Oblivion.

Mundus still experiences the effects of the second law as it on one hand receives input from Aetherius and outputs to Oblivion. Eg. There is constant change.

Outside Mundus, yeah 2nd fails and in the case of Anu, it's pure 3rd law. In Mundus, no because there's still that interplay between the two forces, so the extremes are never met.

I'm not quite understanding what entropy is even though I looked it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy

And I don't quite get the 2nd law either, even though I also looked that one up. And it doesn't apply to Oblivion or Aetherius?

Entropy is basically randomness, disorder, etc, etc. Think about my room. At one point, it was very clean and organized. Now, it's a giant mess, and very disorganized. Or imagine a solid, lets say water for this example, goes from a solid block of ice and into water. Water is more disorganized and random than a solid block of ice, which is very ordered and not so random.

2nd Law, according to Kelvin, says "No process is possible in which the sole result is the absorption of heat from a reservoir and its complete conversion into work." In other words, you cannot put all energy into work. From Clausius "Heat generally cannot flow spontaneously from a material at lower temperature to a material at higher temperature." In otherwords, heat cannot flow from cold to hot, it's only hot to cold. This is why refrigerators work by having a giant heat tank in the back, because it's drawing heat from the part you want to keep cool and in order to do that, you need to put energy into the system. And the very act of doing something will cause the general entropy of the universe to be greater.

I admit, it's complicated, and I'm not surprised not a lot of people get this and it's completely flying over people's heads. Ehh...maybe I should stop, or else I start using even more complicated explanations.

That sounds a lot like the principle of osmosis in cells, where sodium/potassium cross the gradient to go to the area that has a lower concentration of them. I took anatomy, physiology and organic/biochemistry so I kinda know a little bit of it.

So basically, entropy is just change, from something static to something less-static or more chaotic.

How does this not apply to Oblivion/Aetherius but to Mundus/Nirn?

It applies wholly on Mundus, but it's the mix between the two pure and perfect opposites Anu/Anuiel and Padomay/Sithis. Because of that interplay, we have the 3(4) laws of thermodynamics. Sithis/Padomay is pure and perfect entropy, while on the flip side Anu/Anuiel is pure and perfect no entropy or better worded complete and perfect stasis.

Re: those arguing physics shouldn't be applied to the Aurbis.

Generally, I agree with you; and I do think that we shouldn't couch the discussion in terms of real-world physics if only because it sets a bad precedent. But in this instance, Hellmouth is right. Any existence as we know it and can concieve it must follow the laws of Thermodynamics or else they'd be acting very, very... oddly. For example, if the second law even were tweaked, then if you moved an object, sure it might not create any friction as it slid to a stop, but it also could just not stop or, even worse, it might start to emit light, then become highly radioactive, then fission and then become something completely different as it slowed to a stop. Or if the first law weren't true, then all of a sudden things would start popping into existence out of nowhere. You'd go into your kitchen and suddenly face a brick wall.

&Hellmouth below: Yes, I am exaggerating. Sue me.

Well...first law says if A is in equilibrium with B and B is in equilibrium with C therefore A is in equilibrium with C. But yes, the laws of thermodynamics are built within the plane of Mundus

Oh, really? What if it becomes an unstar instead? You reach zero... and you can go negative. Irrational numbers exist. Turn and see the I of the wheel. All that stuff.

And what is the I of the wheel?

The whole thing about CHIM, remember? It's in the monomyth, and Vivec's Sermons. Lorkhan was the first, he turn the wheel of the aubris on its side and he side the I, the tower. Well, he didn't turn it literally, more like in his own perception.

If you look at a wheel from the side it looks like an 'I'. The Wheel is the universe. Therefore the entire universe is within that 'I' - hence, I ARE ALL WE.

He didn't turn it on its side, he went outside and looked at it from the side.

Yeah, but I can't understand anything in the Monomyth. That's why I need someone to explain it in simpler terms.

That's what I meant to say, but was too frazzle-brained to articulate.

So how did Lorkhan go outside the universe then?

I dont think he actually traveled. It?s more of a metaphysical realization

What does that mean?

That everyone and everything is part of the fevered dreamings of the great schizophrenic godhead, and all individuality is a lie. People who gain this understanding usually have one of two reactions to it:

1. they accept that fact and 'zero sum'. They realize that they don't really exist, and thus stop existing

or 2. they accept that fact, and yet paradoxically maintain their ability to say "I am", and thus achieve Chim, which basically makes them a god (and some other stuff, that I'm sure others can explain better).

" Padhome's firstborn went wandering from the start, changing as he went, and wanted no name but was branded with Lorkhan. As time allowed more and more patterns to individualize, Lorkhan watched the Aurbis shape itself and grew equally delighted and tired with each new shaping. As the gods and demons of the Aurbis erupted, the get of Padhome tried to leave it all behind for he wanted all of it and none of it all at once. It was then that he came to the border of the Aurbis.

He saw the Tower, for a circle turned sideways is an "I". This was the first word of Lorkhan and he would never, ever forget it"--Vehk's Teachings

Ok, so he was just at the border, but the effect is the same...

Hold the phone, I think I'm starting to get an inkling of a clue of what you speak. So like, if, for example, Vedaa realizes that she is just part of this "dream" that the Mr. GodHead is having and that her existence is just a false illusion of His dream, then she'll suddenly go POOF! and cease to exist? Well, isn't that uncreation? And if there's uncreation, then there must be creation. But creation is always using something else for it to utilize so that the process can make something, right? i.e. the arms & legs of the at'Ada.

Or, Vedaa realizes she's part of His dream and believes that even though she's part of Godhead's dream, she still has her own individuality and is not bound to the will of the Godhead, and that she has a choice, and that her existence is real and not false. And that magically makes her more powerful than Julianos or Zenithar?






So lemme get this straight, Luagar2. Is the Aurbis the equiovolent of our universe?

Creation and annihilation are certainly possible, it's just that when you get into them, you start getting more into the domain of gods, rather than what mortals can typically do, even with magic.

the godhead dreaming is often used to explain all this, so let me try explaining it with another dream metaphor:

Imagine you're dreaming. Typically, you're not aware that you're dreaming, and thus you follow the logic and rules of that dream (the logic may not be terribly logical, but you still go along with it). This is what being in TES setting, and not seeing the Tower, is like: it might all be false, but there are still rules to it that you have to follow, and that would include any limits on what magic can do, and so on.

Sometimes, you'll suddenly realize you're dreaming, and you typically wake up. This is like zero-summing: you have 'woken up', and thus are no longer in the dream (i.e. you cease to exist in the dream).

Very rarely, you could have a lucid dream, this is basically Chim. You realize you're dreaming, but you don't wake up, and thus you don't just get to break the rules, you get to make new rules, and exert control over the dream. Essentially, you become a god of the dream.