I'm not one to jump on forum trends of asking questions that have been asked multiple times in less than a week, but recent Tower talk has caused me to ask about the particulars of the Khajiiti Tower. I would have asked this question in one of the said threads, but past experiences have taught me that people more than likely won't answer my question, if even acknowledge it.

I understand that Moon Sugar is involved, but how is it involved? It is (obviously) connected with the Moons as are the Khajiit, but surely this can be explained deeper.

Riddle'Thar aka Two-Moons Dance
The cosmic order deity of the Khajiiti, the Riddle'Thar was revealed to Elsweyr by the prophet Rid-Thar-ri'Datta, the Mane. The Riddle'Thar is more a set of guidelines by which to live than a single entity, but some of his avatars like to appear as humble messengers of the gods. Also known as the Sugar God.
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The Mane can record the ja-Kha'jay for his people, all of whom injest Moon sugar daily, uniting them under the Lattice, as a safety net during untimes, which would otherwise alter the Khajiit.

Essentially, they identify with a pre-existing Tower, as their race-cultivator.

The idea came to Proweler, iirc. It's in one of these threads somewheres.

Indeed, the Khajiit Tower is not something they built, per se, it is more of a combined racial thing that has many ties with moon sugar. It has been said that their Tower is them getting "as high as a Tower", and it has also been said that their Tower is their race as a whole. I would assume that Proweler's/Jack's post is correct then.

The Lunar Lattice is the same thing as the Liminal Barrier in that sense. Their Lunar Lattice (the moons) are directly responsible for their moon sugar, which they all eat regularly, like melange spice (for you Dune fans).

Also, the Riddle'Thar mentions the Khajiiti paradise, Llesw'er, which I have yet to find any good resources on. My theory is that Llesw'er has connections with moon sugar, the Lunar Lattice, and the Towers (hence my RP idea )

Could it be that the Mane acts as a stone or anchoring point for their tower?

Do you think perhaps his assassination, mentioned in the novel, has anything to do with some remnants of the Dagonites?

"'The Khajiit must be the best climbers, for if Masser and Secunda fail, they must climb Khenarthi's breath to set the moons back in their courses'... And Azurah left and spoke the Third Secret to the Lunar Lattice and bound the Khajiit to the Lattice, as is proper for Nirni's secret defenders. Then Azurah spoke the Third Secret again, and the Moons shone down on the marshes and their light became sugar."http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/clanmother.shtml

"The khajiit also believe that their gods regularly bestow blessings to their chosen people, in the form of the moon-sugar... This sugar has a variety of uses; it is alternately a seasoning and a magical ingredient, a source of communion with the holy moons and a dangerous and addictive drug. The khajiit understand it to be 'crystallized moonlight'... By partaking of the sugar, the khajiit believes they are consuming small portions of their gods' eternal souls.http://www.imperial-library.info/pge/elsweyr.shtml

From this I'd argue that the moon sugar is the mode for connecting the Khajiit to the moons, based on the same secret which binds the Khajiit also being the one which causes the moons to shine down the sugar. This is aided in the PGE referring to it as a type of communion (ie, becoming connected to the moons by ingesting them).

I'm not sure if people can be stones, but I would most certainly say that he is their Guardian (if you believe that theory, of course).

And if that is true than it would certainly contribute to a weakening of the barrier.

Excellent sources, Luagar, I know I'd heard of Azura giving the Khajiit the secrets, but I couldn't remember where. Azura seems to be the Daedric Prince most actively involved in the lives of mortals, I think I remember reading somewhere that she has some kind of deal with the barrier. Or am I just seeing things?

Well, Uriel Septim acted as a Stone of sorts - or rather, the Septim bloodline in combination with the Amulet of Kings did. (The Akatosh statue now acts as the stone, or the Guardian according to your theory.) So perhaps the Mane and some artifact, some signal of his post, makes a stone? Maybe we'll find out more eventually.

I just get this funny feeling that this recurring plotline about Dagon invading isn't over yet.

They're connected even before that, when the phase of the moon, at birth, leaves a sort of divine imprint on their physiology. Communion is admonishment of both the guilt we're born with, and the salvation we've accepted:
Take, eat; this is my body.

As for people being stones, Pelinal was the Adabal, the stone whose central fixture was the Al-Esh, Star-Suitor. It isn't that the Khajiit have a Stone or Tower, but that they can make Empire without either. Afterall, the Lattice is a corpse void of a Heart.

Uh, briefly skimming... I'm probably not saying anything new: the Mane is the stone and the Khajiit are the Tower? And maybe the moon sugar binds the Khajiit all together? :wacko:

Ah, now that part of the Song makes sense Make Empire? Elaborate, if you will, I have never heard that phrase before.

And yes, the Lattice is Lorkhan's decaying moons. So are you saying Lorkhan is part of the Khajiit Tower? I know his Heart is Red Mountain, and his connection with the Khajiit in the phases/physiology and the moon sugar was evident, but I suppose I'd never even though of him being a part of their Tower...




Indeed, it has been said before, but always good to reinforce opinions.




But of course, after the Oblivion Crisis, all the Towers are made obsolete by the Dragon statue.



EDIT: Well, that is possible, the deeper effects of it aren't entirely understood (by me). The Towers still maintain the earthbones of Nirn, and keep everything from unravelling, but the statue replaced their role as the upholders of the barrier. Though it is possible that it only replaced White Gold, which was the most important Tower anyway due to its position.

Heck, I just learned most of this myself not a week ago, most of what I say is speculation and regurgitation

All of them? I thought it just replaced Gold Tower? :unsure:

Yeah, you gotta explain that.

I grabbed the wrong idea, I meant to say Confederation. sowwy



I'm Saying the Khajiit don't need either Stone or Tower. The Riddle'Thar allows the Mane to reconstruct and take the Tower-form of the ja-Kha'jay. The Khajiit partake in eating the flesh of Lorkhaj, so they too may be one body, with this ritual. The ritual is Riddle'Thar; the Two Moons Dance.

But that'll be in TESVI, not TESV. It switches of

Arena: Dagon Invades (supporting Jagar Tharn)
Daggerfall: The Numidium has nothing to do with Dagon.
Battlespire: Dagon invades the Battlespire
Redguard: Cyrus's expliots have nothing to do with Dagon.
Shadowkey:Dagon Invades (supporting Jagar Tharn)
Morrowind: DagoTH doesn't have anything to do with DagoN.
Dawnstar and Stormhold: Have no idea about the plot of these and, honestly, don't care (There is no summary on the imperial Library, which proves they don't matter)
Obivion: bliviongate: need I say more?


See the pattern?

Yeah it's pretty much every other game give or take. I've noticed that. I'm just saying I don't believe he will ever stop scheming to break down those barriers.

edit: Could it be that the reason Umbriel was able to enter Mundus was the death of the Mane leaving a hole between realms?

Nu-Hatta would disagree with you, Don't forget this. Indeed, http://imperial-library.info/obscure_text/nu-hatta_nu-mantia.shtml#3

Dagon had a lot more to do with TES III than you think.

@Luagar: Thanks a billion, sir. So essentially, the Moons are the Khajiiti Tower and the Sugar is the Stone: if the Sugar binds them to the Moons which they are so connected to it literally alters their appearance, then this is what molds creation then, correct?

Khajiits with dreads...

If towers can be replaced, and if one is created by daedra(khajiit), those "towers" are just titles, no more. If it isn't like that, please clarify.

I can't really tell what you're trying to say but I get the feeling that whatever it is, it isn't like that...

:turtle:

The Towers are definitely real, and their presence or absence makes a huge difference in the reality of the world. If more than two, certainly no more than three, were to fall, the barriers between Mundus and Oblivion would become extremely weak. If four or five fell, things would completely fall apart and there would be no barrier at all. They're not just concepts or titles. They have real power.

They can be replaced but it is NO trivial matter. The ending to Oblivion's main storyline showed us this. It took Martin's life blood -all of it - and the destruction of a priceless artifact gifted to men by a god to recreate a fallen tower.

Is that all? We've got how many pieces of the Divine Crusader's armor? And how many zealots who'd be happy to give their life to preserve reality itself?

:P

Ah, this is a subtle point that I have only recently begun to understand, but I will try to submit what I have heard. My understanding is that a new Tower can be made (that's how they were made in the first place), but it is not an easy task. They must be physically and magically copies of the first Tower (not cookie cutters, but they must be in Tower shape), they must have a Stone, and I'm fairly certain they must be recognized by the divines. This is why I would think Martin could make a new Tower, and I'm sure a similar process would need be undertaken to make the other seven. I think the most recent was Numidium, and I think Anumidium replaced it since it was pretty much the same thing. Only difference was the Stone (can one Stone serve two Towers? If Numidium used the Heart? I suppose that's why Anumidium used the Mantella. Dwemer disappearance theory perhaps?)

Their power comes from their Stones and their shape, I believe. The Stones might be powered by the shape, but I'm a little fuzzy on that. The Stones draw creatia from Aethirius, and along with keeping the laws of nature (earthbones) intact and Mundus together, this creates the Liminal barrier. But I believe the power of the Stones (just theorizing here) comes from their circle shape, which is why White Gold is so important at the center. As you know they form a wheel, the eight on the outsides representing different Aedra (Adamantia is Akatosh, Hrothgar would be Kyraneth, not sure if Red Mountain counts as Lorkhan, and I don't know the others), and Gold is representing Mundus (Amulet of Kings represents Akatosh and Lorkhan :shrug:) It's all in the intercept (shouldn't have to link anymore)

Indeed, and most were at half or no power during the Oblivion crisis, though White Gold was most important. Numidium was gone from Daggerfall, Red Mountain from Morrowind, Orichalc is gone, Hrothgar is missing half of it, not sure about Falinesti or Crystal, the Khajiit's is too obscure to say (though the Mane's death was important), etc.

And of course the reason the shape is important is because their wheel shape symbolizes the Wheel, in essence the echoes of the zero tower make an echo of the Tower (I). Everything fun is always connected in Tes




EDIT: Indeed, I was simply concerned because that leaves several Aedra out. I can't imagine what Mara's, Dibella's, Julianos', etc. represent. Heck, the Khajiit seem more Sheogorath or Lorkhan inclined than anything (Lorkhan needs to stick to Mundus where he belongs )

True, since Lorkhan and Akatosh are the souls (highest subgradients of) Change and constistancy respectivley.

Anumidum = Numidium; two names for the same exact thing. Think Anumidum is the Dunmeri name, though I can't verify that.