I have never played the Tribunal Temple quests in Morrowind, so I'd like to know how the Nerevarine can become Patriarch and Archcanon of the religion that he is set to ruin?
Can the Nerevarine also join the temple after the main quest if he had not done so before? If so, that's even weirder, or..?

"Yeah, hi, I ruined your entire religion but I'd like to be your leader now."
"Sure! You can have my position. I'll just withdraw and write some sermons."


So, yeah, can someone explain, because I must have missed something.

You're playing the game, you figure *that* out.

I suppose you mean that there is no answer and Bethesda were just clumsy?

I always figure it would be cool if you were in the Temple before doing the MQ, and then discover, to your horror, that you are the Nerevarine. I've never done the Temple faction either, so I don't know if your fellow faction members end up kicking you out until Vivec says "okay, let's stop trying to kill the Nerevarine" and you defeat Dagoth Ur. That would be pretty cool if that was in the original game; if it isn't, then it should be.

Maybe there should be a new faction, the Dissident priests, that you can join if you've already done the MQ? You could be the ambassador to repair relations between them and the Temple.

Well, Morrowind is a game that you can keep playing perpetually after completing the Main Quest. I really don't think Bethesda could be bothered to revise all the dialog, quests, factions, and NPC dispositions to account for characters who complete the Main Quest. Sure, the Blight Storms stop - and you get to hear "excuse me, Nerevarine" every 5 minutes, but it just wouldnt've been worth their time to do everything else.

Between many people deciding not to even try to complete the Main Quest and the mod community to tie up loose ends, I don't think it would've been worth their time to create a totally new temple hierarchy and set of NPC reactions.

Hmm, well, then I think it was a mistake by Bethesda to include the Temple as a joinable faction seeing as they didn't have the motivation/time to make separate endings. It's like serving soup and then giving the one who's eating both a spoon and a knife, so that the knife has no reason to be there and just confuses matters.


(everything needs an anology )

Well.... okay. I'm going to dip my toes a little bit in the lore pool, and hope they don't get flayed.

The last playthrough I did was Redoran/Temple. The character was created specifically for that, and the Temple was actually the first faction he joined (well, I guess, after the Blades...)

From a game mechanics standpoint, about the only difference it seemed to make was that he had no real friction with the Temple. I would presume that the disposition hit he took as Nerevarine was countered by the boost he got as Patriarch. It did make some of the conversations a bit odd though, and particularly the one with the Archcanon.

From a lore standpoint, I thought it actually was a great twist. If I were writing a book of the story, I'd definitely add that to it, just for the additional drama. And I really think it makes a certain amount of sense.

Vivec is clearly conflicted regarding his god status. On the one hand, he certainly does have an enormous ego and a staggering degree of (inevitable, really) self-involvement, but on the other hand, you can see that, somewhere underneath it all, he has some amount of sincere concern for the Dunmer, and even some measureable amount of remorse, both for what he did to Nerevar and what he's done to the Dunmer. He likes to believe that he's helped the people, and undoubtedly has to at least some degree, but he has to know at some level, and at least hints that he does know, that much of what they've suffered has been a fairly direct result of his (and Almalexia's and Sotha Sil's) self-involved bid for power. And leading up to the showdown with Dagoth Ur, and particularly after the death of Almalexia, he comes across, more than anything else, as resigned to his fate. It's ultimately just, and it seems that he understands that.

The only "mistake," in this context, that I'd say that Beth made with Morrowind (and a mistake that they rectified to some degree with Tribunal) was to not include some dialogue and such to communicate that the Temple and the gods are actually pretty much separate entities by that point. The Temple really doesn't need the gods any more in order to keep on going. Vivec's really just some multicolored guy floating around in a locked temple. He could just as easily not be there, and it wouldn't make any difference (as evidenced by the fact that you can kill him without having any permanent effect on the Morrowind main quest, other than making getting Wraithguard a bit more complicated). With Almalexia in Tribunal, that point was really driven home. The Temple continues on exactly as it did-- pretty much nobody will even believe that she's dead anyway. Go out front, and Mehra Helas is still out there, collecting donations and granting blessings. Nothing's really changed.

And though that's not communicated in Morrowind as it is in Tribunal, it's essentially the same. The Temple's business continues as it has, and if anything (though this isn't communicated either), they'd get a boost, since the only real problem with the Temple at all (other than rude Ordinators) is the legacy of the Tribunal's betrayal of Nerevar and their own self-involvement. With them either dead or again mortal (depending on how the player handles Vivec) that's gone, and what you're left with is just a Temple-- a bunch of nice buildings with pious people and a stated dedication to helping the Dunmer.

So it seems to me that it could be argued that the Patriarch actually benefits the Temple in the long run by destroying the heart and dragging Vivec back down to mortality. It's not as if he really does anything to benefit the Temple anyway, and his legacy is really a bit of a burden for them. Without him hanging around, it would be just that much easier to simply add the Nerevarine and all those events to the Temple's doctrines. I could even see a crafty Patriarch spinning the whole thing in such a way as to make it into an appealing bit of moralizing-- cast Vivec as a victim of the all-too-common lust for power who, when confronted with the example of what that lust for power could lead to, as embodied by Dagoth Ur, repented his choices and sought to rectify things by choosing to nobly sacrifice his own godhood, and ultimately himself, for the wellbeing of the Dunmer. Might even be able to pull the Ashlanders in if you played that one right....



Hope I didn't diverge too greatly from established lore here.....

Yes, seen like that it is interesting. But the problem is that Bethesda never made NPC's react to it, so you'll have to make something up yourself.
I think they should have explored it further in the Tribunal expansion.

(And I don't think your toes got flayed )

Nope. I just don't feel like arguing over scenarios in which the Nerevarine becomes the new Arch Patriarch and takes over the Tribunal Temple. You've played him yourself so the best person to figure out how you did that would be you. If you don't think it makes any senses for the Nerevarine to join the temple, don't join the temple.

For what it's worth though, nobody believes you when tell them the Tribunal is death. Vivec told you to destroy the Enchantments on the Heart, he proverbially put the knife in your hands and cut out his own. Ayem wanted you as a martyr. You're in the Tribunals service one way or another. You can go all Scorpion King on them if you must. (If you haven't see it, don't.)

fixed

All right then-- fired with enthusiasm and having thought about this some more:

I think it actually makes even MORE sense for the Nerevarine to become Patriarch than for the Patriarch to become Nerevarine, and largely for the reasons I already outlined.

Again-- the Temple is not really the Tribunal-- it's the Temple. The Tribunal is its nominal reason for being, but they're not really the point. The point is fellowship and piety-- dedication and cooperation-- a mechanism to enjoy and fulfill one's concern for one's fellow mer. It's a community-- an organization-- dedicated to providing a place of congregation and worship for the people and to helping out the less fortunate. The gods, in a sense, don't even matter. As I pointed out before (and I'm convinced that it was set up this way just to make this point) the ending of Tribunal makes it very clear-- Almalexia is not the Temple-- Gavas Drin isn't even the Temple-- Mehra Helas is the Temple. Almalexia is dead, but Mehra Helas is still out in front of the Temple, collecting donations and dispensing blessings, as if nothing has changed. And that's really the point.

With or without the Tribunal, the benefits of, and the need for, the Temple would continue. It makes sense to me that a willing and dedicated Nerevarine-- one who was sincerely concerned with the fate of the Dunmer-- would wish to help the Temple continue to do the good work it does. S/he's already rid the Temple of its greatest problems, by loosening the hold of Berel Sala and the Ordinators and by destroying the source of the (potentially evil, probably abused, certainly questionable) power of the Tribunal. So most of the potential evil of the Temple is gone already, and all that's left is the beneficial work-- helping, healing, feeding, protecting-- broadly seeking to better the lives of the Dunmer. That's all they should've been doing all along, and for the Mehra Helas's of the Temple, that's all they WERE doing all along. Get the Tribunal out of the way, and it's just that much easier to do the things that really matter. But making that transition-- from an arguably well-meaning but misguided and corrupted hierarchy to an actually beneficial organization, would require the stewardship of a person who had both the empathy to desire it and the power to enforce it, and who better than the Nerevarine?

'Course, my Nerevarine already was Patriarch, and the first thing he did after the MQ was join the Morag Tong, but still.....

well, in morrowind, if you're doing the nerevarine trials, you cannot join the temple. if you're already a member of the temple, you can no longer do any duties until vivec pardons. if you're the patriarch already, it shouldn't matter since there isn't anymore duties to perform.

I usually do join the temple after the main quest. Though the Tribunal were false Gods and flat out lie to their followers, what they tried to establish isn't all that bad. The Nerevarine could very much help to keep the Temple strong, and rebuild it, so it can continue in its normal functions. Vivec spoke about reorganizing the Temple, and by having the Nerevarine and the Dissident Priests join the Temple, this is exactly what happens.

With two of the Tribunal dead, and Vivec weakened, the Nerevarine would be perfect as a new strong leader, one the people would follow.

Return emphasis to the Saints and ancestral worship.

Sure, that would be easy if it wasn't for the fact that the temple has existed for practically FOREVER, and since a dragon break occurs when someone becomes a god, ALMSIVI has also existed forever. Such a huge change would probably take at least a hundred years to happen. Meanwhile, things would be unstable at best. Look at the early relationship between the orthodox and catholic church for example (but don't look too closely, I don't want this thread to be closed).

When you pass the trial of the Nerevarine, the Redorans and temple goers will be pissed at you when you talk to them, so if the player was Patriarch before the MQ, it can be assumed that the temple would shun him, and the old dude (forgot his name) would step in, then, when Vivec makes nice with the Nerevarine, Sardoni(?) would retire again and the Nerevarine would take his place.

The Tribunal aren't the only thing the Temple worships. There is also:

1. Ancestor worship

2. Worship of the three good Daedra; Azura, Mephala, and Boethiah

3. Worship of the saints

Too true - and if you go in the direction that gives you a reletively amicable conversation with Vivec he suggests that is the way the Temple ought to go - with the tribunal gradually being accepted as Saints rather than Gods. Assuming you trust Vivec.

I have to admit that though I played the trust Vivec card for all it was worth there came a point where I felt that was simply not sustainable (maybe because rogues require victims and I do seek to travel that road) and hindsight gives you a clearer insight if you read the novel and the consequences of putting too much trust in Vivec can bee seen in the fate of the rock and Vvardenfell.

I really like this concept of the Temple being a thing in its own right - it does make sense - and it fits with the thought that you should not expect anything to be good or bad .. rather you should expect things/people to be themselves = always full of complications. That's part of why i love ES - it is the necessary antidote to too much console finger-twitching - or it was and hopefully will not lose that aspect ...

Digression apart this does not mean I think the Temple would necessarily continue unchallenged ad infinitum - just that it has its own momentum. I think everyone can see that it will change and may indeed survive in some way - the fascination will be in seeing what as.

Joining the Temple and the strange position you then find yourself in may not have been done perfectly, but for all its awkwardness it was one of the better aspects of Morrowind and indeed ES - a totally excellent example of 'uneasy lies the head that wears the crown'! I tried it and felt like **** but that is how it should be for me in that situation since I had already completed the MQ and knew what might happen.

There are examples of people gaining high rank in organisations that should have shot them when they first entered the door. That's the way power and also corruption work. Not to say joining the Temple was a corrupt choice ... that depends on what you believed at the time.

What was missing as I think peope here also noted is the possibility of drastic changes in outcomes, the society etc - but everything has its limits and it may be we will have to await the next level of AI when Harry Seldon has completed his mathematical model for that