:icecream: powerful terminology and use of language jackfrost - I suspect that others will ask you to be more specific as to the location of your sources if they do not know where you got that from - forgive me but I know Oblivion from hearsay (still no ob-capable computer) and I do not want to totally spoil all chance of surprise by reading all the in-game material before I play the game

Mostly out of my ass, and I don't advise looking there... I like the theory the image he would craft was a memory of the dawn. I don't like the theory it has something to do with a hidden relationship between Lorkhan and the brotherhood.

This means I place no significance on the statue.

I think it's like, why do we have hitmen here on Earth? Some people just need killing.......... a lot of people actually. lol

It's the same reason while contract killers exist, but I'd word it differently - the way you're turning it sounds a bit like hitmens are performing a laudable task. They usually aren't.
They're often used in crimnal-vs-criminal disputes, in which case the dead party at last somewhat deseerved it. But they're also often used to remove nosey law enforcers, reluctant officials or embarassing witnesses. Or peoples like a former girflriend or someone who don't want to sell his property at a discount. Basicaly anyone thir employer wants to be be rid of, no matter what the reason.

Sounds like Akatosh and Lorkhan to me.

I completely agree. Really, it was just a guild for emos. Black clothes, chaotic stupid, and living in mom's basemant as set off warning flags for me.

Emos that cut other people

Thing is that in Morrowind there is a guy named the Wormking in a Tomb - he was so easy to take down. So it may be there is a reason for much of what has been done that has created so much of this disappointment with relative stonkiness of much-lauded characters.

People generally do not say that Lore-wise The Elder Scrolls Morrowind is the greatest game in the history of the universe.


Looking at these strangely weak NPCs makes me think of mythagos - sort of out of their time

Daggerfall: Shady semi-religious group of freelance assassins and other undesirables (poisonmakers, warlocks, et cetera) aligned to the Night Mother. Existence seems to be heavily doubted by the general populace.

Morrowind: Freelance assassins, blackmailers, traitors, effectively a mercenaries' group given how they are contracted in Tribunal. More business-oriented, existence seems to be known by authorities and the commonfolk to some extent.

Oblivion: Guild of deranged, murder-obsessed, all-black-wearing emos who enjoy killing in an effort to fulfill their obsessive, masochistic worship of Sithis and all those dark creepy crawly things. Felt completely one-dimensional to me and just an excuse to throw some Chaotic Evil into the game.

You mean the games don't usually do the fiction justice? say it aint so

So they're insufficiently distinguished pawns of a stupid and constraining game engine? Is that where you're going with the mythagos description?

I see it as the different sections of the guild. Cyrodiil has the least assassins (only one monastery) so they are the most religious part, and spread the religion through the other branched. In Daggerfall they would have been used very commonly for religious executions (think of all the warring states of the bay!) In Vvardenfell the Brothehood would be on their toes constantly: they had LEGAL competition that had a license to kill them.

My opinion on the night mother. The night mother from oblivion is an avatar/high priestess of Mephala. The regional leaders call themselves night mothers to keep power over their followers, and the truth in known only to the Black hand and the regional leaders.

Sorry - that's not what I was writing - that was an unstable comp - it must have pasted in something else

First - Morrowind always seemed acceptable to most people lore-wise

The games and the fiction in ES are not rigidly concurrent - they are flexible. I would never have liked either one so much without the other.

There is a series of tales by Robert Holdstock (hope that's spellled correctly) that starts with a book called Mythago Wood. Someone goes into the local woods and mythagoes begin to appear. My interpretation is that these mythagoes are not the original beings that the myths surrounded but rather embodiments of their characters and natures given form and their own independant existance through what may be the pressure of the belief of people or suchlike dowen the ages. Therefore they do not have precisely the same characterinstics as the original. And even their 'life force or strength of nature can be weaker or stronger according to where and the circumstances in which they are encountered. All is relative. As a fish out of water if you like.

Likewise you note that belief plays a part in the strength of ES Gods? So if you become a 'legendary being' (or an avatar of one) the belief of the people may likely affect you ... okies?

Indeed, a guild of assassins doesn't really need much more of a goal than that. Of course they keep changing between games, but in the end the basic thing they do seems to e the same, in Daggerfall, people hire them to kill people, in Morrowind, people hire them to kill people (although the fact that they always end up waking you up with a loud noise whenever they're sent after you seems to suggest that they're not very good at it.) in Oblivion, once again, they're hired to kill people. The fluff may seem to change between games, but whether they just kill people or they coat it with lots of religious stuff, they're still assassins.

In the end, some people want other people killed, sometimes these people deserve to die, sometimes it's the person who wants them dead who deserves to die, but the Dark Brotherhood doesn't care about this, what they care about is that the person who wants the other person dead hires the Dark Brotherhood to take care of this situation, and since the Dark Brotherhood are assassins, they do this. As long as there is a demand for assassins, they don't really need to have any cause greater than offering a service that certain people want, this doesn't mean they can't, but they don't need to.

What religion did they respect in Daggerfall?

The Nine Divines - solid Imperials the Bretons

edit: And Daedroth worshipers ofc

see OBs Brotherhood on a deeper level. and the statue of Sithis resemblign Lorkhan because Lorkhan is the closest there is to a physical representation of Sithis (See The Monomyth perticularly Altmer and Yokudan creation myths) so thus Lorkhan and Mephala as joint founders of the Brotherhood. again going on the idea of Sithis is Lorkhan is Sithis. and Night Mother is Mephala is the Night MOther. makes sense ifyou l ook at the statue of Sithis in the Vile Lair with its missing heart. looks alot like Lorkhan doesn't it? and is actually perticularly remniscent of Lorkhans Identity of Sep.

but to clarify on somthign i said earlier on Sithis is Lorkhan is Sithis. think of Sithis as an entity like a company or a sports teem and Lorkhan as a mascot a visual representation of that entity. Lorkhan is to Sithis as Mario is to Nintendo,

It is worth remembering that the Dark Brotherhood see themselves as a family...'a union of like minded individuals' which I think goes beyond murder and death. They are courteous and respectful to each other,and to the new recruit, apart from M'raaj-Dar, but it is noticeable that his concerns centre around the ethos of the Family too.

Chillingly contrasted with the reality that their Speaker would condemn them all to death by the hand of one of their own, just to eliminate a traitor.

And yet the Night Mother can pinpoint their targets, but doesn't lift a finger to pinpoint traitors to the Brotherhood, resulting in quite a few killings of loyal members before the traitor is actually nailed. Yep, she's definitely Mephala.

Glad this thread came back up again. I think you are putting too much emphasis on Lorkhan with the Dark Brotherhood. He is a good candidate for the Dread Father role, but there is no reason to believe he even acknowledged the guild's worship of him. If he were an active participant in the dogma of the Brotherhood it would have to be after the Tong split, as there is no such idea in the original Tong ideals. Also keep in mind that Sithis is not a manager, he is more like the field they play on. To be specific he is the dark side of the parking lot for the field

Oh, and on the subject of Oblivion poorly portraying the Brotherhood, I vehemently agree. I like Morrowind's scarce depiction of them better myself.

Indeed, it's very much worth noting that what ever Lorkhans involvement in the Darkbrotherhood it will be shaped much like his other appearance of Shor, Shezarr and Lorkhan. While each embodies the same set of principles, they each articulate a different view of it.

i'm just noting some bits and pieces that exist in The Monomyth and the Dunmer text "Sithis" that seem to greatly indicate Lorkhan has some great hand in this. also keeping in mind Greywins tatu. all of these things seem to point in that direction but that might j ust be me being crazy