In several places, we see the name of a Dunmer Great House used as a sort of prenominal title. E.g., Indoril Nerevar, Hlaalu Helseth. And of course, there are the dozens of Dagoths [Name]s, to fit the same scheme. However, we also see it used more as a surname: Lord Voryn Dagoth.

My question is, is there any definitive lore answer to which of these uses is correct? A mod I'm working on will feature the writings of a nobleman of House Dagoth, who lived before that embarrassing contretemps at Red Mountain. Do I call him Dagoth [Name], or [Name] Dagoth?

Possibly there is no correct answer to this, in which case I'll just go with [Name] Dagoth. The other way always makes me think of the Sith.

If he is related by blood to the founder, it is a sur name. otherwize it is a lastname.

I've always seen Neverar before Indoril, same wit Lord Helseth Hlaalu

A bit off-topicish, but who exactly founded House Indoril? Was it Nerevar or St.Olms? And were they both related?

Wait what? A surname is a last name.

Either way works with those names, both are used frequently. Indoril Nerevar, Nerevar Indoril, it just depends on who you are talking to.



Nerevar founded it, with some help from Almalexia. Turns out Almalexia has more sway over Indoril than Vehk, she's actually the one that gave the Ordinators to Vivec for his own city. He does have control over the Ordinators in Vivec city, but this group of elite guards are just a small portion of the Great House Indoril, most killed themselves after the Armstice, and the rest are pretty much integrated into the Temple.

So to answer your question, Nerevar and Almalexia founded it, but Olms was probably the head of the Ordinators in Vivec. They were a house before they were Ordinators.

So, looks like I can use whichever I want. Good, good.

The Ordinators and House Indoril are not that exclusive. Ordinator armor is called Indoril armor because most Ordinators are Indoril.
because House Indoril is the most pious house. It's just a nickname. While Almalexia did have more infulence over House Indoril, the Ordinators
served the Temple as a whole.

Alma DOES have complete control of the Ordinators. Vivec controls the Boyant Armigers. The two groups were basically giant orgies until Vivec city was over-run by ordinators, which happened as soon as Vvardenfell was of importance (When you could actually go anywhere without being an Armiger.)

Of course, I hope I never implied otherwise. When I said they were a house before they were Ordinators, I was simply making a generalization based on the fact that most Ordinators are Indoril. You are right of course, though for the most part most Ordinators are Indoril and most Indoril are Ordinators.

Anyway, back on topic, do you have the information you need then?

I know that. I meant first name. Why didn't anybody correct me before you? sorry.

Actually..the notion that a surname comes last is a very anglo, western idea. In many places in Asia and other cultures, the family name comes first. It could also be the same in Tamriel, in certain instances. Perhaps traditionally the Great House name came first, and was an adopted surname of sorts. This would explain Sotha Sil, Dagoth Ur and other beings who to modern day decide to use this version of naming. Others, perhaps later under Imperial influence, swapped the House or clan name to be last.

Dagoth Ur's real name is Voryn Dagoth. I'm saying that the House bears it's founder's name, since originally all houses ere limited to families. Families joined with stronger houses for more protection to form Great Houses. The family of the founder of the house that was joined to would carry the House (family) name as we do, with it being after our given name. However, house nobles of other bloodlines would carry it as a title, as in before their given name. Sometimes the Given name is edited out for time, (example, Officer Smith rather than Officer John Smith.)

Makes you wonder what Sotha Sil's original name was, huh?

IIRC the term surname is a corruption of sire-name which is the way Orc names (or Icelandic ones) are done. Referring back to a founding ancestor instead of just the previous generation is a variant on that, and should probably be called a family name or house name. So Dagoth is a house name, not a sire-name or "last name" and can appear where it wants to.

The Nords use attributes and professions instead of ancestry as differentiators, much in the same way that the Welsh (who all seem to have the surname Evans) refer to "Dai Baker" and "Dai Miner" - many European "surnames" derive from that practice crossing over to family names, so that Sawyer becomes son, grandson etc. of the original person who sawed wood for a living. But this can also cross over in the other direction, with the use of family names and so a Nord who is associated with a Dunmer house might be given their name as his/her attribution. It would not imply family descent, just a close connection. Again there are a lot of European names that are the place of origin of a family, which may have been named for a different family that founded it, not always implying any other connection between the families beyond the spacial coincidence. There's probably some of that going on with the Houses.

Well all the tribunal have cities namd after themselves besides for Sotha. pERHAPS HIS FIRST NAME IS cLOCKWORK?