I'm crafting a fan-fiction for my own amusemant, based around a character I've developed over the past year. I'm abusing the universe a little, but for lore's sake I do want to keep it relatively "proper" and not stray from the lore too much.

A huge part of my story involves the interbreeding of Argonians and Dunmer. There are three characters in this story that are half-Dunmer, half-Argonian.

I've envisioned them so far, in terms of appearance, as having the same basic body shape as an Argonian, yet with a slimmer frame, standing fully upright, with a somewhat shorter tail. They're scaly, and black with shades of gray on the undersides of their arms, their stomach, and neck. Their eyes are a deep and bright red. They have long, white hair, and very long, pointed "elven" ears. Essentially a cross between the Arena and Daggerfall versions of the Argonians. I've imagined them as having all the traits of both beast and mer. The ability to breathe underwater, quick, agile, dangerously strong, immune to most disease and poisons, very intelligent and very, very attuned to magic.

Now, first and foremost I'd like to point out that my original intention was for this racial combination to be the result of magical experimentation. But as I developed it a little further in my mind, I wanted it rather to be about the romance between a mer and a beast, and their eventual offspring: these three characters.

I'm happy with what I have so far, but is this even possible or acceptable? I don't know if beast and mer or man can produce offspring according to lore, or if there ever have been "half-beasts".

Of these three characters, one of them is a vampire as well, though relatively young. So I am very eager to explore the possibilities and expand their story, and the story as a whole. But my lore is very rusty so it's coming slow. I'd appreciate any and all information regarding this matter.

With Khajiit there's a slim possibility that inter-breeding could be possible, but there's been no reports so far. Argonians on the other hand...Well considering that they are descended from the Hist Trees, and not the Ehlnofey, then I believe it's pretty much improbable. However, we know almost nothing of the physiology and the mating habits of Argonians, which only further confuses matters.

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1080527-half-breeds/

You could read this thread. It outlines why it very unlikely for the Agonians to be able to have offspring with the other races. And why the other races, are likely able to interbreed most likely.

There are two possible interpretations on Argonians that are relevant. First, there's the idea that the Hist use their magical sap to raise Argonians up from beasts to sentient beings. This is the idea most popular around here. If this is true, then interbreeding would very likely not be able to occur because it'd be like trying to mix oil and water. Argonians and Dunmer would be two different kinds of life. The Dunmer (as well as all Elves and Men) are a descending stepping stone from one super-being, whereas the Argonians would subvert that where life that was on this descending stepping stone was suddenly raised up. The two just couldn't mix.
Second, there's the thought that the Argonian's sentience has to do with the Hist merely putting a bit of their souls into Argonians to grant them sentience but also control over them to use in whatever the Hist want done. In this regard, the sentience is artificially infused into an animal and not actually raised up, so metaphysically they can mate. And yes, http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/remanada.shtml than someone loving a glorified animal.

But bear in mind that this just creates the metaphysical possibility. Argonians are still ovoviparous (egg-laying) and Dark Elves are not... so yeah. There might be some possibility if the mother were Dunmer

In other words, you're on thin eggshells, but there is a tiny possibility.

Also, I'm assuming you've read Notes on Racial Phylogeny, the bible for all interbreeding discussions.

I've researched a lot of lore in an attempt to keep my tale within reason. I took a chance developing three characters of beast and mer mix, and I remain uncertain of it's plausibility without magical interference. Bringing this into my story necessitates investigation into the origins of the Argonian people, and as that remains debateable, it's becoming clear to me that I'll have to rework the plot.

Assuming that the Hist are responsible for Argonian birth and sentience, that makes the mating of a Dunmer and Argonian completely impossible by physical means. However, with that said, would it be plausible for a magically powerful mer to somehow combine their spirtis -- the mer and the beast -- say, in a soul gem, which could then be used to summon a mixed "child"? If so, that would require an immense amount of power to sustain their physical existence. Which would mean an item, a pendant for instance, enchanted to regenerate magicka, would be needed. Even then, someone would need to summon the spirit. And my lore is a bit rusty here, but if I recall, the parents would have to be killed for their spirits to be trapped in the gem. If this is correct, then a third party would need to be the summoner. This idea eliminates two of the characters, though, because three children wouldn't be able to be summoned from two spirits, but I had originally had one character anyway.

All of this, of course, is stretching the lore to its extreme limits, and due to my lack of concrete information I can't say whether this is even plausible.

If it were, however, this child would essentially be both parents combined into one entity, and not exactly a "new" individual with their own mind. However, the combination of two minds in such a way would mean they identifiy as one person, and this one person would have both of their traits, so they essentially would be creating a child. But this is all far-fetched in terms of the lore and I'm mostly just having fun imagining possibilities.

Now, if the Argonians are egg laying, that would mean a Dunmer would need to somehow infuse his "genes" so to speak into the eggs. Which remains an equally difficult task of making reasonable.

All in all I'd say it's an interesting idea but with a lot of obstacles. I am aware that the Dunmer people and the Argonians hate each other, but the story, if anyone cares to know, deals with abolition. The premise: a colony of Dunmer abolitionists near the border of Morrowind and Cyrodiil help free slaves and escort them to safety in Cyrodiil. They eventually ally themselves with former Imperial legionnaires, who have gone off to Argonia to make their own war against House Dres in an attempt to combat and eventually end slavery. The main character is a Dunmer named Torvayn, who with his cousin Darvelo leads the abolitionists. The first part of the story mostly deals with Torvayn's meeting of, relationship to, and eventual companionship with the as of yet unnamed half-Argonian, and their adventures together. Other parts are planned that will continue their adventures beyond this war.

This character can, if it ever came to it, be just a full-blooded Argonian, with only a couple of drastic changes to the plot. But I would find it less interesting, to me, at least.

Thanks everyone for your replies.

This is a bit more likely.

Enchanting is (as best as I understand it) taking a soul and kind of using it as glue in order to stick a spell onto an object in such a way that you desire. That degree of soul manipulation firmly puts this magic either in the realm of Necromancy or in the lap of Daedra Lord. There is a lot of ground for Necromancy covering this sort of thing. The King of Worms could reportedly rip the soul right out of your body, so it likely isn't that far of a mental leap. But, considering that what you're proposing http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/exodus.shtml what we believe Necromancy can traditionally go (note: link is questionably fictional... in universe), I'd probably say a Daedra did it. I'd also go so far as to say such a creation would become an abomination to Arkay, Meridia, and maybe Kynareth. As for likely suspects, Malacath, Namira, Molag Bal, Sheogorath, Boethiah if you can get around his patronage of Dunmer, and Mephala. Different Lords, naturally, have different implications for the transformation. Alternatively, the Hist could probably be able to perform this act too, though I'd imagine the scene would play out remarkably like something out of Avatar, unless you really got creative.

Finally, yes, you're right that the parents can't survive to see the 'child' and you have as much artistic liscence as you want about whether anything tangible (memories, skills, etc.) survives from the parents, though I'd lean more towards some things surviving. As for getting around the ovoviparity (I love saying that word), you can have a 'foster' parent involved. Either the Dunmer male knocks up a female or vice versa, and then whoever is combining the two gets rid of the foster parent's contribution. If you lean with the birth with the Dunmer, likely the foster mother would raise the child, and you could also have the mother be this Necromancer (if you go with Necromancy). If you lean with an egg birth, then you can eliminate the 'father' if that's what you want. If you explain this coupling, though, don't base you're explanation in genetics. You can use it as a guide to how to think about the act, but I feel like creating offspring in ES is much more concretely a mixing of spirits.

Actually, Namira hates anything unnatural. She may be the prince of darkness and ugly things, but not unnatural things like undead, abominations of nature, and so on. Heck, her ring in DF did 200% damage back to undead enemies, 100% to humanoids and monsters, 50% to daedra, no damage back to spriggans and animals

The idea of this mixed person being an "abomination" had occured to me. In the eyes of both the Dunmer and the Argonian people, the idea of mixing their blood should be wrath-inducing, considering their history. Yet there is a unique situation in this tale where the Argonians and some Dunmer people do unite for a common cause, so in a way he becomes a "symbol of hope" for their cause. Yet still, if I were to go with my aforementioned plot, that the parents join their spirits within a soul gem, who are then killed, and their joined spirits summoned from the gem to essentially form a child; this would make such a creature as much an abomination as the undead in some regard. If I am correct, this individual would be immortal, so long as his existence in the physical realm can be sustained. Yet if not, that joined spirit would be drawn back into the gem, able to be summoned again. In some sense this character is like a powerful undead spirit.

I think this makes the character all the more interesting and opens up far more possibilities than a mortal, be he full Argonian or mixed. This now necessitates a character strong enough in magic to have summoned this person, and a means by which to keep him summoned. This makes me wonder if it is plausible to say that Ayleid Wells or perhaps even a Great Welkynd Stone is responsible for maintaining the summon.

All said and done, my story is non-canonical, and though I do wish to keep it lore appropriate, I'm not afraid to take some liberties and go beyond what's plausible for story's sake. I'll see what people have to say when I post the first chapter.

It's strange that at least two Daedric Princes, Meridia and Namira, harbor such hatred of the Undead. That flies in the face of the "Daedra are stereotypically evil" perception a lot of casual fans have. A crusader who hunts vampires or liches could just as easily be in the cult of Namira or Meridia as of Arkay.

Or Telvanni. They've been known to more than dabble into necromancy and I'll bet some of Divayth Fyr's cures for corprus blurred the line between Restoration and Necromancy fantastically.

Meridia, I can definitely see, since she's all about the Plenum, filling the container until it is full (of life). But Namira? Going on a quest to slay all undead abominations in area X. I believe she did do that in Daggerfall, but I just can't really feel it.

That being said, with but a couple of exceptions, I can see the gentle appeal of a lot of the Daedra. Sheogorath has enough proof of this to last him a whole 'nother thread, same with Azura, Boethiah, Sanguine. But Pyrite gives your life immediate structure; Mephala comforts you that all is not random and in fact was predicted all along; Malacath gives you solace and solidarity in your transgressing actions; Clavicus Vile tells you that anything is possible as long as the ends justify the means; and on, and on.

Well, Namira is pretty much a hippy chick, except not being the kind of hippy chick that goes "I love all of nature" and usually the Disney kind of nature, but more like "I love all the ugly, dark, depressing, gross, scary, and grotesque parts of nature." Though, as I pointed out earlier, Spriggans are not affected by her ring in DF, along with all animals.

And you show it's perfectly okay to annihilate your enemies.

Maybe she feels like the whole undead thing cramps her style...only SHE is allowed to create and control abominations which would make your skin crawl.



Yeah they're definitely all three dimensional characters. I believe that. I wish we could get to know them all better, one by one, the way we got to know Sheogorath and Azura already.



I sort of see Namira as being the mirror image of Kynareth in a way...almost like Hermaus Mora is like a twisted mirror of Julianos.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkkYxmMj-Ool

Nice eye there.



Link doesn't work.

As I was saying... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkkYxmMj-Oo

Wrong universe you say? Are not Krorne and Dagon one and the same?

Very different.

Indeed, the chalice from which I sip my human blood is made out of gold and is gem-encrusted. Completely different.

Impossible. In order for 2 different specie to interbreed, they must have an equal number of chromosomes. Argonians are reptilian, where as Dunmer are mammal. It is possible for Mer and Men to interbreed because they share common ancestry, though whether or not their children can produce viable offspring is a different matter altogether, and hasn't really been explored in the Elder Scrolls lore.

Genetics have been tossed out the door since it has been established the offspring is the mother's race.

That said, I still agree with the assertion that argonians can't breed with the other races, due to being of the Hist and not of the Ehlnofey.

Yeah, I've decided to go with a more mystical, magical origin for the character. Something along the lines of what I previously suggested: being a product of two, joined souls.

Mankar Camoran (I belive Camporan Usurper's wife was human, but am not sure, and could very easily be wrong) had two kids.


They said that happens MOST of the time. I'm guessing that Ehlnofey descendants have four Racial-whatever combinations (XXXX OR XXXY) and that the 'Y' is given by the mother out of any of her Racial-whatever's. Therefore, there is a 75% chance of a half breed being of the Mother's race.

If that was the case, the rise of the bretons shouldn't have required many generations of nedic and aldmer breeding, and we'd see a lot more definite halfies walking around. The mother's genes dominates completely, with the father only adding very subtly.

Well it is noted that the character Symmachus in "The Real Barenziah(Daggerfall version, in all it's kinky freaky glory)" is a Dunmer with some Nordic ancestory, and he and Barenziah have Helseth together.