Yeah, what Phitt said!

With regards to quest markers, I wouldn't overuse them obviously but also not avoid them completely, in certain situations. I've used a quest marker quite often when a vanilla NPC needed to be talked to for a quest, when the challenge of the quest wasn't about finding that NPC.

So I don't want to make it too difficult to find the person, especially if the NPC has a strange schedule. It's fine if you were told that he can be found in his own house, at the chapel or in the tavern, then you'd still have to search for a bit but it wouldn't be frustrating. But if said NPC happens to have a weekly trip to another city in his AI schedule and you can't find him because of that it's just frustrating.


In these kind of situations I like adding a little extra line to the journal entry, like 'I need to find . I'll try the guild halls and taverns first.'

To me it's pretty logical that a resting traveller would be found at one of such places, but if I played a quest mod from someone else I wouldn't know if the modder had the same idea, or would have the guy wandering around the streets instead.


Also I agree with Phitt, journal entries should be clear enough that if you stop playing the game for a week and then come back, it should tell you all you need to know to continue where you left off.

I think this was an issue occassionally before version 2.0 of Kragenir's Death Quest. It might still be but I hope I've solved most of them now. Like one quest in Leyawiin and one in the Elven Gardens District where you'd have to talk to quite a lot of NPCs, but the game wouldn't keep track of which ones you had talked to already and which you haven't.

Well then I can point to a few Kragenir quests where you have names and contacts then the trail gets cold and no name or contact or anything to follow up on.

If you remember these moments let me know, I'll have a look and see if they're still too vague.

Far to late for me to change an entire quest to add this. Though to be honest I don't see it as necessary because if you want to know what is going on talk to the characters involved and they will tell you. Also you recieve mail in your office that tells you what to do. Your office is pivotal in the whole thing, when you reach a deadend and there are some in this quest, you return to this one central place for further instruction. It is very hard to go wrong. Check your office. Also my quest takes place within a limited space, so for mine that is probably quite fine.

Generally my quest making is pretty risk taking as it really deviates from the normal Oblivion quests in that it asks the player to deduce what is going on and guidance is offered in a realistic manner. You can drop it and do something else however if you don't follow and keep up with the story then you will not gain the full experience and the quest is about an experience. This quest is not made with the idea that the player will drop it part way to pursue other quests and I think that if it were then the quest would not be half as involving or good as it is. The reason why is because the quest tells a story and like a book, if you put it down to read other books it will be difficult to get into the story again when you pick up the first book again. Often I prefer to reread the book from the start in order to pick it all up again, in the very rare instances that I do flit from one book to another. A journal summary really doesn't do it.

Also if I need to worry about the player getting distracted by other things all the time it limits the creativity and story telling I can do with my quests. So many might not like my quests, I think a small audiance will appreciate them though.

Just my thoughts on it.

Speaking of Journal entry lack - with Kragenir:
I have no idea who has the last plate (after all these months)
I am completely lost with regard to Just Deserts

... both could have used more of a counting down by checking off who I'd talked to already instead of who I need to talk to. Both quests have sunk to the bottom for me as it seemed most of the info was in dialogue and I don't have access to that in game. I could open tes4edit and look but man not as fun and I always forget before loading the game.

So I too (again) vote for strong and detailed journal entries - 100s of quests is right. Wow I scroll through them and have forgotten what some were even about. It is unrealistic to imagine that as easily as quests can be started in this game that each quest would be started and finished in the order they arrived and not having a way of keeping track is asking for the quest to not get done.

If you were tackling a task with a lot of complexity wouldn't you take notes? So why wouldn't the character.

The quest journal when done right should give all the info you need to get to the next part without spoon feeding the player with exactly what to do, but it is also very helpful with many characters and locations to be able to look back at what was already accomplished.

I was eyeing this thread, as it had wandered off into a bit of a college union late night discussion of Tolkien and his relative merits and dislike of allegory, even though he used it... but it seems to have gotten back to the discussion for the OP looking for some feedback or opinions on certain types of things in a quest mod. (Specific or hypothetical.)

I like puzzles and I don't like it when journal updates and people are unrealistically helpful, but I want to know that if I'm doing all this work it'll mean something. In the example you gave with four doors, that would really annoy me. I'd much have one, harder to reach door so I know it'll mean something when I complete all the puzzles and I won't just be annoyed by having wasted my time.

I think my vote would be on journal entries for certain types of quests. If the quest involves taking across Cyrodiil, yes have journal entries to keep track as the possibility of diversion is there.

For my own quest it takes place within the Pell's Gate Gallery. Occassionally you will get tasks that send you to one of the other four towns included in the mod. For example...'go fire that person there' or 'go interview that person there'. However those tasks are given through notes you find in your office pigeon hole sent from other staff members. Therefore if you do get diverted you have written instructions anyway to guide you to what you should be doing. But given the area the quest takes place in and the fact that you will not visit a non modded place during the quest, there is little opportunity for deviation. Unless the player gets tired of it and purposely deviates, in which case it is unlikely they will return anyway.

That said there is a real possibility of getting lost in other areas of the quest, unless the player is wrapped up in the story and paying close attention. To save the game and return forgetting where you are. But I think it is quite simple enough to pick up again. There are two rules to follow that guarantee you will not get lost. Speak to all the nine Gallery staff members in this mystery and check your pigeon hole in your office.

I just don't think Journal entries would work in some quests, especially one of this nature. There is just no way they couldn't reveal to much in a mystery quest.

I will be very interested in how this quest is received as it will give me a good idea on how far I can deviate from the Oblivion 'norm' and exactly where I may have gone wrong or right.

I just yanked her name out of a hat. I haven't actually read any of her books.


It was late night!

Back OT... I forgot to mention an example of really obscure riddles: LAME's paperchase. I don't mean to bash on LAME or bg2048, because he's a great modder and I love LAME, but no one to date (at least not to my knowledge) has completed the paperchase, and it's been over 2 years. I've found a few of the scrolls by chance, but even knowing the answers to the riddles, they make no sense at all. For example:

"A homeless' home, fate for those destined to go to the dreamsleave, Alkosh's curse. Above death and rebirth incarnate."

I'm not going to give the answer, but it doesn't really fit the riddle.

Sounds good to me, I don't need the info to be in the journal specifically, as long as it is easily accessible.


I'll see if anything can be done. I considered improving some things in Just Deserts for 2.0 but that release was already taking way too long. But maybe in the next update.

Quest entries exist, IMO, to satisfy two major needs: first, to remind the reader of landmarks, names, other critical facts they've discovered (for later reference), and to add information that might me be otherwise available in game. Like Bethesda, I use journal entries for every stage of the quest. Unlike Bethesda, I don't give direct orders through journal entries.

This is an example:

You enter a bookstore and pick up a book, "The Legend of the Dead." You read the book and, in doing so, the book mentions a manuscript that once was in the possession of the fighters guild. The journal entry might read:

Today I discovered an interesting book, The Legend of the Dead. It was a story of a wizard who gained eternal life by first passing through the portals of death. The author claims the book is based on a manuscript that is in possession of the fighters guild.

By Oblivion standards, this journal entry is incomplete. The following line needs to be added: "I need to go to the Chorrol Fighters guild and see if I can locate the manuscript." Also, a green quest marker would be added to direct people to the Chorrol Fighters Guild, and where in the Guild the manuscript is located. So basically all a player would need to do to complete the quest is to simply walk from quest to quest. See the Main Quest in Oblivion.

I personally would be satisfied with the original journal entry. The suggestion that there's a manuscript at the fighters guild would be reference enough to send me looking in the seven fighter guilds. And what would be frustrating would be if there was not a manuscript in any of the fighters guilds - although placement then becomes an issue.

And this is the nexus of my problem. The source of my quest takes place at the end of the First Era. Thousands have years have passed. What is truth? What is legend? Part of the player's challenge is to figure that out. It just seems to me there should be some difficulty in sorting out history. The stuff you're looking for won't be laying on someone's end table. A book might be in a library, on the top shelf, long forgotten. A dungeon from the First Era won't be in a clean, well-kept area of the city. It will be in a place long forgotten. In fact, something may have been built over it. Finding an entrance might be a challenge.

I awoke this morning to several suggestions by e-mail and PM. They generally fall into two categories:

1. Make a walkthrough. Like Ervvin, I can make a step by step walkthrough that will basically tell the player what they are supposed to do and when. One person pointed out that, even with all the handholding in Oblivion, there were people looking for a walkthrough when the game first game out (I wasn't around then, I take their word for it).

2. Make a easier, "dummied-down" version of the quest. This would include specific directions in game. This seems like a bit more work, but might be possible.

In either case, I'd make these things after I finished my original quest.

~ Dani ~

Excellent example, in my view. And in my take on "the right way" (my take on, people...not saying there's one way and only one to do it...heheh) a good "followup" would be asking Fighter's Guild members- most of whom would know nothing whatsoever, perhaps a couple recommend other guild halls (more wrong than right, some know and some are making idle speculations possibly even based on past idle speculations) and finally perhaps someone in the correct guild hall knows exactly where the manuscript is. Or only knows it's in some hidden, long-walled-off sub-basemant. Or knows some retired member who is said to know. Perhaps even two people in the "correct" guild hall- one knows where in the building to search, one knows the retired member with the information- the thorough searcher checking every member will find the "shorter path" while those who jump on any clue might get the "retired member" path and have to make a side trip that could have been avoided?

Aye, it's a hard balance to strike- to not go so far as the Magic GPS Arrow, but also not so far as "It exists somewhere in Tamriel, and by the way good luck with that." Hmmm...enough clues to make it clear that progress is being made, but not just handing out definite locations on a silver platter?

Your four doors example doesn't sound too bad to me, especially if you give hints about which door is right.
- Is it necessary for all four locations to have lots of bad guys in them? Would it be ok to make some locations empty, or have non-hostiles instead?
- Will there be hints in the wrong locations to tell the player that this is the wrong place (besides testing the key)? Will there be hints in the right location telling the player that this is indeed the right location?
- Will the wrong locations have anything else in them? Perhaps some notable loot, or something to flesh out the story? If I cut through a dungeon AND it turns out to the be the wrong place AND there is absolutely nothing of interest regarding the quest (aside from the info that this is the wrong place), then I would be annoyed.

That is where the difference is, to me the fact that the book states there was a manuscript in possession of the fighter's guild is indication enough that the fighter's guild is my next destination. Any pop up journal entry is unnecessary to tell me what I already know. So in my quest it expects the player to glean that information from the book itself, rather then pointing out that particular information after reading the book. That is the sort of quest I enjoy as I consider pop ups immersion breaking.

There is no right or wrong way to do it, simply a differing level of difficulty I think, that comes down to personal preference. If a quest is to difficult then journal entries would help and I have played quests like that. So I think it comes down to the type of quest.

Fascinating thread. I have skimmed, but will re-read more carefully later.

My take on the 'four door problem' postulated at the beginning:-
Starting with knowing the door is in one of four locations
1. Asking a member of a logical faction in a logical town eliminates 1 location
2. Finding and reading a new book, again in a logical location, eg a Mages' Guild library if mages are involved somehow, eliminates a second location.
3. Solving a fiendishly difficult riddle based on existing lore and the current quest eliminates the third location.

On a more general note I would ask for mixing the 'detective work' type quests with some mindless killing. I like both, but after 3 hours of walking and talking, experimenting with loads of different theories about how to solve quests I just want to go out and kill something.

(Rant about Tolkien removed before posting)

Regarding the fighters guild book - I would find it annoying if you then have no clue which one or go to the main HQ in Chorrol and there is not even a topic for it because it is not the right one. Then have to visit each one until the right topic comes up in conversation.

That is how what starts as urgent quests get shelved. Now if each chapter could give you a valid lead (like each chapter having someone to talk to who then in turn can send you somewhere for the next portion) what makes leads like this dumbed down is when each destination is just that - the next destination - there are no twists, no bumps, no hassles - just fetch. That is dumb but not a fault of the journal log or even pointers. It is just a lack of imagination and more of the same.

[edit] ohh and the whole Tolkien thing - gosh not really what I was hoping to accomplish. I just see him as a the start of modern fantasy writers - I don't care much for picking on authors - the point for me was the levels of interpretation and how that can/could be implemented in a game or mod. Wasn't trying to dump on anyone's hallowed ground. It is just entertainment after all.

The journal is a way to summarize what your character already knows. That is the whole purpose of the journal (or should be, may not always be the case in vanilla). Like I said before, you switch between quests and this is still a computer game. I don't remember every single thing I did or found out during a gaming session. Most importantly I have my real life, I have other games and I have lots of other quests I can play in Oblivion. Maybe in real life you wouldn't need a journal entry to remember stuff like that, but for a computer game that is only a tiny part of your life and that comes with hundreds of different quests it is needed as a reminder. I might simply forget that I read that book after a week of hard (real) work or after doing some other fun quests in the game. That is where the journal is helpful. And there is really no reason not to have a journal entry. It doesn't tell you anything your fictional character doesn't already know.

If you don't make a journal entry to punish really stupid players who don't know that 1+1 is 2 then all you will achieve is frustrate the smart players who don't play the game 24/7.

I agree with Phitt. Sometimes I don't play for months and when I come back how could I remember what was some character saying to my character?
I want a neutral point of view summary in my quest log.

Like let's say NPC Joe tells me about manuscript in possession of Fighters guild.
I want my journal to say:
"I spoke with Joe who told me that the manuscript is in possession of Fighters guild."

but I don't want it to say:
"Joe told me that the manuscript is in possession of Fighters guild. I should check Chorrol's guild hall."

The journal shouldn't tell how the player character feels either. That's a small pet peeve of mine.