Aetherius Vs. Oblivion

Post » Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:52 pm

Ok, so I have been doing some serious studying on this, and I've got to ask the community (if someone else hasn't already done it):

What is the difference between Aetherius and Oblivion in the sense of the religions of Tamriel? Some faiths seem to say that you go to Aetherius after you die, but others say that you pass on into Oblivion. And that's ingoring culture-specific netherworlds, like the Nordic Sovngarde.

What happens? where do you go? Anyone have any theories?
User avatar
Ashley Hill
 
Posts: 3516
Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:27 am

Post » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:24 am

When mortals die, they go to the Dreamsleeve (normally). If they bound themselves to a daedric prince, they go to that prince in death (see OB's paradise). The Aetherius, as I see it, is largely blocked off to mortals, denizens of Oblivion, and pretty much anything outside of the Aetherius, because the beings living there do not even want to be with them, interact with them, or have anything to do with them. Meridia was tossed out by her daddy (Magnus) because she was consorting with 'illicit spectra', which I can only assume a being outside of the Aetherius. Possibly the daddy to Umaril.
User avatar
SiLa
 
Posts: 3447
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:52 am

Post » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:08 am

Here's what a search found: "http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?app=core&module=search§ion=search&do=quick_search&search_app=core&fromsearch=1."
User avatar
Prue
 
Posts: 3425
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:27 am

Post » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:39 am

Hrm....
Well if Aethrius is reserved...then where do WE go..
o_0

Is it like Greek Mythology?
Olympus=Gods
Hades=Bad people (i suppose)
Underworld (us, them, normal people)
User avatar
james kite
 
Posts: 3460
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:52 am

Post » Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:55 pm

When mortals die, they go to the Dreamsleeve (normally). If they bound themselves to a daedric prince, they go to that prince in death (see OB's paradise). The Aetherius, as I see it, is largely blocked off to mortals, denizens of Oblivion, and pretty much anything outside of the Aetherius, because the beings living there do not even want to be with them, interact with them, or have anything to do with them. Meridia was tossed out by her daddy (Magnus) because she was consorting with 'illicit spectra', which I can only assume a being outside of the Aetherius. Possibly the daddy to Umaril.

The Dreemsleeve is IN Aetherius. All life goes through it, mortal or not.
User avatar
Alister Scott
 
Posts: 3441
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:56 am

Post » Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:54 pm

The Dreamsleeve is a designated non-space.
User avatar
Laura Samson
 
Posts: 3337
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:36 pm

Post » Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:17 pm

The Dreamsleeve is a designated non-space.

yarp
User avatar
Jessica Raven
 
Posts: 3409
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:33 am

Post » Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:13 pm

Damnit...

Where is that writen? cause I'm sure there is other usefull information there as well.
User avatar
Charleigh Anderson
 
Posts: 3398
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:17 am

Post » Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:29 pm

The Dreamsleeve is shortcut to afterlife, :).

Oh, by the way: if ressurection fron the Dreamsleeve is possible, will it be in the current kalpa, or in the next one?
User avatar
claire ley
 
Posts: 3454
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:48 pm

Post » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:25 pm

Damnit...

Where is that writen? cause I'm sure there is other usefull information there as well.


Its implied by the concept.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbelith
User avatar
Brιonα Renae
 
Posts: 3430
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:10 am

Post » Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:38 pm

So, mortals go to the Dreamsleeve, which is sort of in Aetherius, and sort of not. But what strikes me is that the Dreamsleeve is said to be where mortal souls are recycled (UESP, "Lore: Aetherius"). Does that mean that the Dreamsleeve is in a metaphorical sense just a highway back to Mundus? Or does a soul stay there? For instance, is the Dreamsleeve synonymous with the ghost realm of the Dunmer Ancestors?
User avatar
Andres Lechuga
 
Posts: 3406
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:47 pm

Post » Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:27 pm

So, mortals go to the Dreamsleeve, which is sort of in Aetherius, and sort of not. But what strikes me is that the Dreamsleeve is said to be where mortal souls are recycled (UESP, "Lore: Aetherius"). Does that mean that the Dreamsleeve is in a metaphorical sense just a highway back to Mundus? Or does a soul stay there? For instance, is the Dreamsleeve synonymous with the ghost realm of the Dunmer Ancestors?


Wow slow down. First of all be careful with the UESP when it comes to lore. It's not as bad as it used in some places but it's still not at the point where you should just rely on it. It's better to stick to the original material and use that to directly support an argument.

Simply put, the Dreamsleeve is that part of the shrizophrenic skill ball where every ones conciousness comes from. It is an essential part of Mundus, in a way it is the aggregate identity of Mundus. Afterlife is a construct that covers up this insanity by providing what a person expects too see. It's very much a delusion but a beneficial one.

Slightly more elaborate:

If I'm not mistaken if you are looking at what happens after death. To know that, you have to know what a soul is.

* We know that Arkay governs the souls.
* We know that Dunmer can call their ancestors back.
* We know that Necromancers do the same.
* We know that everything alive and contious has a soul, including the Daedra wich arn't from Nirn.
* We know that souls can be trapped in a gem when they die.
* We know that Nords go to Snovegarde when they die.


From all that I think that the "soul" is just a conection to this world. On one end attached to something physical, such as the body, a soul gem, a skeleton or some ectoplasm. The other end attached to either something in Oblivion or something in Mundus. On death you are disconnected from Mundus and either trown back to Oblivion or connected to Arkay, waiting till you can be reincarnated.

There seems to be a difference between what Souls were in Morrowind in Oblivion. Were in the litterature from Morrowind you actually were trapping a souls, replacing it's body with the soulgem. In Oblivion it would apear thatyou are merely svcking up some Creatia (mythic energy) from a person.

Souls typically act like anchorchain between some place and the body. The body anchors the the chain to the world. When it's destroyed, the chain slips back into where it came from. This can best be observed with the Daedra and Gods who merely have to recreate their anchor to return.

Mehrunes Dagon

WHAT?! Why, you arrogant little bug. You think you can svck the power from me and cast me into Oblivion? Well, it is not so simple as that. So long as my power is anchored to this world, I can resist the outflow of my magica. If not forever, then certainly long enough to blast you and your incantation into component syllables. And consider, fool. No mortal weapon ever forged has the power to sever my anchor to this realm.



Mehrunes Dagon spelled it out for us.

When mortals die they are not able to recreate their anchor so easilly so they go somewhere else. This can be a soulgem, a soulsnare or if you are lucky your respective afterlife. Often this is considerd to be Aetherius or similair concept. However most noteably is Sovngarde, which means as much as "sleepers armcover", better known as the Dream-Sleeve.

The Dream-Sleeve is understood to be the shrizophrenic collective contious of the world. The afterlife you craft out is one long dream in which you'll slowly forget yourselves. Vivec mentions that his death is like sleeping, so it could be assumed that he to goes to the dreamsleeve but does not lose his identity to the shrizophrenia like the ordinary souls.



Arkay is the God of the cycle of life and death. We're born from the dreamsleeve and return to it on death in an endless cycle that is always new.

Birth:

We mortals leave the dreaming-sleeve of birth the same, unmantled save for the symbiosis with our mothers, thus to practice and thus to rapprochement, until finally we might through new eyes leave our hearths without need or fear that she remains behind. In this moment we destroy her forever and enter the demesne of Lord Dagon. - Mythic Dawn Commentaries


Mortals leave the dreaming-sleeve of birth, without any divinity (unmantled) safe for the symbiosis with the special divinity of Nirn (our mother, Mankar wan't to destroy Nirn).

The powers also created Red Tower and the First Stone. This allowed the Mundus to exist without the full presence of the divine. In this way, the powers of Ada-mantia granted the Mundus a special kind of divinity, which is called NIRN, the consequence of variable fate. - Nu-Mantia Intercept


This special divinity comes back in the intercept, Red Mountain (tower) holds Lorkhan's Heart (stone). Lorkhan's heart is also called the divine spark, our shared divinity. As such, we already much like the Daedra, we're separate parts of a larger divinity.

Death:

When people from different cultures all believe in an afterlife and all seem to get exactly what they expect, it is reasonable to assume that their experiences are influenced by their expectations. The Nords believe they go to a place called Sovngarde which can be translated as to a meaning that means as much as the Dreamsleeve, the sleep-enclosure. So we're already back the start.

"The echo of the Void is Oblivion. The echo of Oblivion is now mortal death. Death results in reappropriation of spirit towards its aligned AE either to the god-planet Aedra or the Principalities of Oblivion. Vehk's name for this transaction, mentioned above, is "unar currency" - Loveletter from the Fifth Era



This shouldn't be read as some Heaven and Hell afterlife were people who've done enough bad things end up in Oblivion. The AE literally is a connector and in the sermons it is often used as: "AYEM AE VEHK AE SETH", Almelexia and Vivec and Sotha Sil, Almsivi.

This connection is the soul. Normally, when a person is killed he experiences afterlife, when a Daedra is slain he experiences the void. A soul trap can force the soul to remain connected to a soulgem and a Necromancer can call back souls and force them to animate a body again.
Ghosts can return out of their free will if they have something that binds them, but often you'll see that they've already started to disintegrate and are starting to lose their memories and thoughts while they're being mangled and stripped from their identity in the dreamsleeve.

As I've already shown above, mortals are born from the dreamsleeve, it's their to their divinity so their allinged AE goes to Mundus and while the God planets of the Aedra are often interpreted as Aetherius, they are part of Mundus, they are the gift limbs.

It's also what allows Mankar Camoran to pick up his followers in his Paradise, they've given up Mundus ("destroy her forever") and become part of Mehrunes Dagon ("enter the demesne of Lord Dagon")

---

For more:

What are souls post #3
Sovngard/Oblivion
Dreamsleeve

Similar topic:

Death


If you take a hundred thousand million drops of water, don't you have a a single lake? Or if you have one lake, don't you also have a hundred thousand million drops of water?
If there is One, Nine, or Eighty-One it doesn't make a difference because it's only a different way from looking at it and what you see depends on what you think you see. The Imperial gods reflect the imperial idea's and views as high and divine kings, the Nordic gods are more warriors, examples for the Nords, the Redgaurd gods are useful, ect.

The identity of mortals is destroyed, after all Lorkhan "yearned for the return to flux", a period of time from before Akatosh when the gods still could die, "but at the same time he could not bear to lose his identity", showing that even in death not everything is lost.
People and gods can live on in myths, in the minds of many people who all dedicate a small part to him. No different from how Tamriel exists in our minds, one place in a thousand locations.

edit:

Sovngarde/Oblivion about how souls/afterlife works.
Dreamsleeve about what the dreamsleeve is.


User avatar
claire ley
 
Posts: 3454
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:48 pm

Post » Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:31 pm

In that context, it makes a lot more sense. Especially in the light that Dunmer Ancestral spirits seem to be largely without identity, which is more in line with the argument presented.

And thanks for the info on UESP. I wasn't aware of its history of inaccuracy.
User avatar
Lori Joe
 
Posts: 3539
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:10 am


Return to The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion