By the time the Empire approached Morrowind, Vivec had achieved CHIM, had he not? In this case he would have realized that he is a part of one, yet an individual etc. etc.
Surely this would have meant that he would realize that all actions and efforts were ultimately pointless, as the world is merely the dream of a Godhead. In this case, why did he go to the effort of ensuring that Morrowind did not go to war against Empire, and negotiating deals with them. In fact, why did he even bother to lead morrowind at all?

I'm probably wrong here, but I'm not sure he had realized CHIM; Vivec had achieved godhood through accessing the Heart of Lorkhan, but not by way of CHIM. Maybe the phrase "no one stands there yet" applies. It could be no one had achieved CHIM at the time Vivec wrote that; Vivec understood the nature of CHIM without necessarily being in the state of CHIM.

You're presuming that because everything is the dream of the godhead, all individual actions and efforts are pointless. CHIM was never about the dissolution of individuality.

http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml

Cyrodiil likes ebony. Lots of ebony in Red Mountain... Something else in there too, The Tribunal already knew the future, but the Dunmer didn't. I doubt Seht would have been able to council against the Dunmer fighting the Imperials. Vehk knew his people, and fought with.

I don't see why they wanted chim if they weren't going to do much with it. Tiber started a landscaping project, and Vivec wrote some books that don't sell well outside the home market.

I know CHIM seems to sometimes be a hot topic but I feel the need to put this out there, CHIM seems to exist primarily so that the writers can tackle the question of what it's like to be a monotheistic, omnipotent and omnicient god in a world where polytheism is clearly the fact of the matter. I mean, every fantasy writer has written from the perspective of a finite, limited god with a lowercase "g" but only Tolkein has really done a convincing job of making a capital-G God into a character that doesn't seem like a total... er, well I can't say that word here. Seriously though, Iluvatar>Godhead because he was always part of the thing, while Vivec being more than a leech and the Godhead seem to exist solely for the sake of author tracts.

No, I realize that, Vivec still recoginises himself as an individual, I. If he didn't he would zero sum, not achieve CHIM. But my point is that once you achieve CHIM, you realize that, despite your individuality, and effectively limitless powers, there is little point in using them.
Thus Vivec could have used the powers of CHIM to obliterate the Empire, but did not, yet he still cared enough to negotiate a deal, why?

HOWEVER:



Its quite possible that your right, after writing that post, I thought that too, I think we need someone with a better knowlage of Lore history than me to say when exactly Vivec achieved CHIM...

EDIT:

I would agree he is less of a God in the convenetional sense, but I wouldn't say he is just a narrative device. He is the reason why anything exists. For example, Anu and Padomay created existence, but who created Anu and Padomay? Answer is, the Godhead dreamed them.
Its like the old question, if God made the Universee, who made God? In this case its the Godhead.

Somehow everyone always forgets that the godhead is what is coming. CHIM is a move in that direction.

"This should be seen as an opportunity, and in no way tedious, though some will give up for it is easier to kiss the lover than become one."

Here we come to the Scripture's greatest resignation: to imagine the subcreation AFTER mortal death, which by pattern would mean an echo of Mundus, and through this imagining, the failures of so many.

The Digitals' record of the Lunar God's involvement in all of this is called the Great Pain: "The Lunar God failed by his own devices, to show the new progeny how they might not."

You in the Fourth Era have already witnessed many of the attempts at reaching the final subgradient of all AE, that state that exists beyond mortal death. The Numidium. The Endeavor. The Prolix Tower. CHIM. The Enantiomorph. The Scarab that Transforms into the New Man.

Simply put, as the Gods cannot know joy as mortals, their creation, so mortals may only understand the joy of Liberty by becoming the progenitors of the models that can make the jump past mortal death.

And so many of you give up.

Mortal Death to Z (Z being the state-gradient echo of Mundus Centerex): antinymic to [untranslatable].

"The lower regions crawl with these souls, caves of shallow treasures, meeting in places to testify by way of extension, when love is only satisfied by a considerable (incalculable) effort."

Those who do not fail become the New Men: an individual beyond all AE, unerased and all-being. Jumping beyond the last bridge of all existence is the Last Existence, The Eternal I.

Yeesss... but I don't think that really answers the question, explain?

Attaining CHIM does not in any way entail that all your efforts are ultimately pointless. You're initial assumption is mistaken.

CHIM is overcoming the restrictions of this world, so as to be able to become/give birth to the godhead, who in turn becomes/gives birth to a whole world of I.

Why do they do this?

But by nature, realizing that you are part of the Godhead, and that the world is nothing but the dream of the Godhead, and you are a figment of His imagination, even whilst preserving the idea of 'I', means that any of the events of the world are ultimately pointless, as nothing in the world is any more real or yielding than a dream, as in Mark Twains "The Mysterious Stranger": "But a thought - a vagrant thought, a useless thought, a homeless thought, wandering forlorn among the empty eternities".
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Do what? Achieve CHIM?

If I may offer a quick opinion: What you are suggesting is the logical outcome of realizing that you are a part of the godhead's dream. However, CHIM is not quite so straightforward, it is realizing that and still retaining your sense of being and individuality. To do what you suggest is to zero sum, to realize everything is pointless and thus losing your place in the dream. Even if the world isn't what you thought it was, it still is a world and is as worth living as anything else. Besides, just because it doesn't accompish some cosmic plan doesn't mean it doesn't have a purpose, it helps those mortals still living in the dream afterall. To suggest something is pointless you must prove that life has a point in the first place; I can argue that everything everyone does is pointless if I don't believe in a purpose of life. (Trying very hard not to get into religious topics )

Hope that helps

Yeah.

CHIM is not identity with the godhead. CHIM is fully realizing your individuality, and thus being free of the restrictions of the Aurbis - that is, free from the convention. Attaining CHIM puts you in a position to become/give birth to the godhead.

That point should be emphasized. When you become amaranth you are not a part of the godhead, you become the godhead, and everything in your world is a part of you. Your actions are quite the opposite of ultimately pointless.

Oh, and there can be multiple godheads.

Those who do not fail become the New Men: an individual beyond all AE, unerased and all-being. Jumping beyond the last bridge of all existence is the Last Existence, The Eternal I.

Note the plural. Each godhead dreams their own world.

They do it because they're scared of death. Because they're disconcerted with this world, but they don't want to lose it. They want to live, but they're ashamed to. Their reason is because they desire it. If you control a fiction, you control a world. They're conscious of their fictional selves, and so they want to control the fiction, thus controlling themselves. That is why they do it, because they're scared of death.

What? :poke:

The problem here is with the question itself, "why do they do this" - they don't do it for any reason. Its not something where they say, "he, lets try and achieve CHIM today."

CHIM, as is generally known, entails realizing the nature of the world while maintaining your individuality. This is not something one sets out to do for power or to gain control over death due to fear, it is not a motivated action, it is a realization. To give any premeditated motivation to it assumes that they already know the truth of the universe and were biding their time waiting for the best time to achieve it, but that's putting the cart before the horse; the realization and the achieving come simultaneously, maintaining it follows.

You can ask how they realize, but not why, because that assumes that its something that they intended to do all along, it assumes it is something consciously motivated by some earthly notion - its not like a lich, a heart-leach or even an enantiomorph, its not done consciously. The only semi-legitimate claim might be that they do it out of love but even that would be a misleading answer.

I'd say that realization can't occur, without a worldview that isn't at least predisposed to such a thought pattern. A fear of death stems from fear of the unknown and the mysterious. They would at least need to believe that mystery can be solved, that death could be controled or averted. They don't need to succumb to it. For the realization to take place, it must have a receptive mind.

I'd agree with Subadim there. As well, we know that people DO try to achieve CHIM, just look at the Psjjic Endevaour.

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Ahh, I see what your getting at there, so effectively existing purely for the point of existing, and for the point of aiding those who have not achieved CHIM.

I believe I have read somewhere before that those who search for CHIM will never find it. Only those who discover it will achieve it. I'm not sure if it has to be an accident, but I'm fairly certain you can't actively look for CHIM. For one thing you would probably zero-sum, being you approached it so. Perhaps that is why the Psijics were "Wrong headed from the start".

Vivec constantly advocates looking for it. "By violence", if you must. Perhaps you are just confusing a few things.

anyone can be specific as to when Vivec achieved CHIM? when the Lorkhan juice supply was cut off, he went to look for some other way to retain godhood and found CHIM? or when?

also, anyone would please clear up some things for me? like, hm, godheads? since when is it plural? shouldn't there be one Godhead? or is it Godhead with many godheads? and give birth to the godhead?

I'm not sure we know when Vivec attained CHIM. Perhaps that's a confused question. If I had to hazard a guess, however, my suspicion is that Vivec attained CHIM when he made the decision, along with the other members of the Tribunal, to kill Neverar and tap the Heart.

As for there being multiple Godheads, from the http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml (note the plural):

Those who do not fail become the New Men: an individual beyond all AE, unerased and all-being. Jumping beyond the last bridge of all existence is the Last Existence, The Eternal I.

I AM.

A whole World of You.

God.

God outside of all else but his own free consciousness, hallucinating for eternity and falling into love: I AM AND I ARE ALL WE.

demons of the Haight? C0DA? Digitals? Know Love to avoid the Landfall?