Basically, yes. But due to coming into contact with the power of the Heart before his actual death, he had the power to project his avatar into the world of the living. Once the Heart was freed, he no longer had that ability and so he remains in the dreamworld.

So, the Sharmat was a pawn of some as yet undisclosed "total": is Nu-hatta talking about the Tribunal (hmm, maybe, but pawn in far different than Enemy)? the Enantiomorph (naw, it ain't this one)? the Gods? the Lords of Misrule?

Too bad our moth boy didn't tell us which Aggregate...

Ur could be the 'Dream-sleeved inversion" of the Godhead. Its sojourn from the "other" side, through the Dreamsleeve, would appear inverted, from the Mundus side. The Godhead wants control of the dream again, and Talos' presence at the center is a guard of the current world (one without a dreamer?):
... His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.

The

Isn't that why Dagoth Ur is so ticked off at you in game, railing on about you betrayed him and killed him. :homestar:

That would be the inversion of CHIM wouldn't it? With CHIM, a character in the dream takes the form of the godhead, with this, the godhead takes the form of a character, which connects with the "he is all things" statement. The connection with Talos also recalls the fact that Dagoth Ur had a distinct agenda to war against the Empire.

I don't think that it is a conscious action on the godhead's part though, but rather that Dagoth Ur became its inadvertent conduit to Mundus. The aggregate would be in this instance the godhead I guess, the OP mentions him seeing his own I.


http://ofb.net/~frederik/misc-art/inside-out-good.jpg

Could he have meant by the biters Ash Vampires? (Ash Vampire ~ biter)

I doubt it due to the fact that the Ash Vampires are not vampires in the traditional sense. They don't go around biting anyone. The Heartwights are bound to the Heart and they live - and resurrect when killed - because of that bond. Without the Heart, they can't live. At least not in the physical world. They depend on the Heart to sustain them.

Didn't he forgive Nerevar anway? And try to convince the Nerevarine to join him? I don't recall him being very angry in-game, in dialogue or otherwise.

That sounds right, infact that too might be what Nu-Hatta meant by 'Dream-sleeved inversion.'

That is precisely what concerns me about Oblivion's ending: were we instrumental in knocking White-Gold - the hub of the Wheel, paradigm of Talos - out of commission? It seems as though someone is playing a very good game against the player: in victory they win; in defeat they gradually win.


Good point, I don't think it's possible for the godhead, in its condition, to take conscious action at all.

No matter who it maifests in, the Dreamer would be completely drunk with itself. Dagoth Voryn's mind must have been torn to pieces, as he gravitated closer and faster toward the godhead.

Beth should publish this as a book in their next game :thumbsup:

I wish I could have replied to this when everything was fresh on my mind, alas real life has kept me away for a few days...

Interpretation of him bringing the biters here might be helpful if we narrowed it down to Dagoth Ur proper, Dagoth Ur as Sharmat or (as explored below) Dagoth Ur as CHIM/godhead/dreamsleeve inversion. This may be relatable to the aspects of the dreamer projecting themselves onto a physical world of their design, the Sharmat being the facilitator of the action. I need to do some rereading of the Sermons, though I might wonder if there's any significance in his seven brothers.

Perhaps the very fact of their consciousness of their setting those rules, of their separation from the real world, of their being 'awake' has something to do with it.

I wondered over that line for a while and never came to a solid conclusion. I'd generally assumed your second option, relating it back to "The powers also created Red Tower and the First Stone. This allowed the Mundus to exist without the full presence of the divine. In this way, the powers of Ada-mantia granted the Mundus a special kind of divinity, which is called NIRN, the consequence of variable fate.(http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/nu-hatta_nu-mantia.shtml)" However I'm not sure how relevant it is in context.

The current world can exist without the dreamer, its as dead as Lorkhan, and it does so. Pelinal, as enantiomorph, is much more real, much more in touch with that dreamer as a reality, thus the realization that the world is going along without its consciousness has massive repercussions upon his mind - perhaps the destructive madness is his attempt to prove to himself that he's still there, that he still exists.

Maybe, "The myth of dynamic invincibility of the Emperor and the Empire has long been an unquantifiable and intimidating threat [to Dagoth Ur]..."

Now we've got the ball rolling. One becoming all versus all becoming one, a nifty idea. Whether or not Ur was the inadvertent conduit is up for grabs but one must admit he was heading very quickly in that direction if it wasn't actuality, that would be CHIM's inversion. As mentioned, the goal is recontrol of the dream, reunion with it, with Ur as god trying to piece back together into "one flesh" (and even one mind) 'Even as my Master wills, you shall come to him, in his flesh, and of his flesh.'--Dagoth Gares

His mind was torn to pieces, a fact attested to by both Vivec and Nibani Maesa, "he is a mad god." Going back to what I mentioned before, this would explain his uniqueness within the dreamsleeve and how he could escape the erasure. Previously I'd simply assumed it was because he was awake within it, perhaps this is the natural result of being conscious in such a state - ghosts are unconscious and remain normal, Ur was conscious and potentially took upon the godhead, or at least I think its safe to say that he took upon a state of the godhead (ie, took on its properties and ideals through exposure to it)."Only He is Awake! Only He is Alive!" Only he is lucid, only he is not an illusion. To take a step further out on the limb, as its inversion Dagoth Ur couldn't have gained CHIM, for CHIM assumes that you can realize you are not an illusion.



While we're here, these lines have always intrigued me:

He Knows the Names and the Naming!
He Knows the Wait and the Waiting!
He Enters into every Star and Moon!
He Shines through their Shadows!
...
I see you with MY EYE!
And all is SILENCE!
I Wake! I Remember!
LORD!http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/parchmentscrawlings.shtml

The first line sounds similar to the Monomyth ("They began to take names"), the second of the dreamsleeve (whether the waiting during death as a god which Vivec refers to as being asleep or the wait between death and birth of any soul), the fourth of either an inversion of the stars or of the Serpent constellation.

The last four lines make me think of the Sixth House initiates first experience of the 'divine dreamworld', they see with the one eye in the silence of death, they wake (return from the dreamworld, with the dreamworld being a conscious recognition of the state of the dreamsleeve) and unlike normal circumstances they remember, for generally individuals memories are wiped clean while in the dreamsleeve.


Note: Whenever this topic is discussed one can't help but notice the connection between group which delve deeply into the dreamsleeve (the Dwemer with "the Calling" and Dagoth with the 'divine dreamworld). When individuals delve too deeply they disappear or CHIM, when groups delve too deeply they attempt to build a god as gestalt and perhaps disappear in the process. I get the impression that the result of this delving is a brief experience of the godhead, like an epiphany, which the individual then spends the rest of their energy trying to recreate in the form of a construct.

How long is it going to be before the Moth Priests begin constructing a giant insect which represents the gestalt world coming into rebirth.

No need; they could just repaint the Siege Crawler; it looke like a big insect, and to Mankar Camoran, it was part of the effort to cause Tamriel to be reborn.

Edit: Dang, I'm really obsessed with that Siege Crawler. Probably has something to do with the fact that it can level a city and it's just lying unused south of Bruma.

Sorry if I misinterpret or miss out on what has been said here, my mind is slightly blown .

Surely We can't forget that Dagoth Ur was born a Mortal, just and ordinary House Dagoth noble. So does that mean that the Heart of Lorkhan in effect caused him to be born a second time (any literature/ravings referencing this, perhaps?), only backwards? This would effectively appear to be death ( which literally happened to hims shortly afterwards, of course) then, only preserving the mind so that you still live in the dreamworld. Of course you've already covered all that
But continuing from what you were saying about inverting the dream sleeve. If The universes mechanism for resurrectiom etc. is the dream-sleeve, and for Dagoth Ur this is reversed, then surely the real world, i.e. Mundus is where Dagoth Ur is resurrected/reborn/whatever you call it.

Also, could the whole, reverse birht/death theory not tie in with the Dwarves, perhaps they achieved the same as Dagoth Ur, being born backwards, i.e. appearing to Die/Dissapear, only they lacked the strength to maintain their mind within the dreamsleeve, or perhaps they retained their minds, but choose not to return to Mundus (their Dreamworld).

So, the Dwemer experienced a bit of the dreamsleeve/godhead and like Dagoth Ur, were inspired into building a construct in an attempt to channel the powers they had learned, correct?

You have revealed the very fabric of creation to the profane Well done, a very nicely done article and deep research.

oo: is all I can really say.

I think he ended up in a plane of Oblivion that is not the mortal plane



You may even be right, but it has nothing to do the fact that everyone in Morrowind are infertile and the fact of not having children in TESIII. They do not put children because it would be immoral to kill a child in the game, and would not be fun immortal NPCs in the game. At least that is what somebody said to me here.



Thus we learn that the Heart of Lorkhan was a dangerous instrument, capable of making people "die", but not their dreams.

Bethesda should have made infertility in Morrowind part of the lore, ala Half-life 2: In that game, there were no children since everyone was infertile due to a force-field of some kind, thus the people there belonged to the youngest and 'final' generation.

Thank you so much, Luagar. I remember this thread from when it was first posted, a very interesting read. I have recently started a new playthrough of Morrowind, including the main quest. With your information in mind, I came upon something I had forgotten, the disturbing dreams Dagoth Ur sends you. Some passages from these are very interesting, when linked to Dagoth Ur's state of mind, as dream-sleeved inversion:


I had a disturbing dream. I can only recall one part. A tall figure with a golden mask led me among the dead as through a wedding celebration. I heard many voices, but no lips moved. I strained to breathe, but my chest didn't move. The tall figure spoke with each figure as he passed among them, laughing and joking, as if they were alive, but they made no reply. I tried to cry out, but without breath, my tongue fluttered in vain.

In my dream, a tall figure with a golden mask greeted me, saying, "There are many rooms in the house of the Master. Be easy, for from the hands of your enemies I have delivered you." It seemed I had died and could see myself laid upon a table lit by candles. But with my own hands I touched the figure, and the figure drew breath, opened eyes, and rose from the table. Then the room was gone, and the world filled with light, and I awoke.

I dreamed that a tall figure with a golden mask spoke to me, but I understood not a word. He smiled, and seemed pleasant, but when he reached to touch me, it terrified me, and I tried to escape, but I couldn't move. I tried to cry out, but I couldn't make a sound. The figure kept smiling and talking, but I felt sure he was trying to cast some sort of spell on me. When I woke, I couldn't recall how the dream ended.

In my dreams, a tall figure in a golden mask spoke to me. "Lord Nerevar Indoril, Hai Resdaynia! Long forgotten, forged anew! Three belied you, three betrayed you! One you betrayed was three times true! Lord Voryn Dagoth, Dagoth Ur, steadfast liegeman, faithful friend, bids you come and climb Red Mountain! Beneath Red Mountain, once again, break your bonds, shed cursed skin, and purge the n'wah from Morrowind!"


The emphasised passages seem particularly interesting to me. Perhaps these can shed some light on the dreamsleeve, or at least how Dagoth Ur perceives it. I am by no means a lore buff, but maybe someone else can make something of this.

What occured to me is that we seem to observe Dagoth Ur within the dreamsleeve, but we are not within his dream. He speaks to the dead, but they do not reply, but in Dagoth's mind they do. I also wonder what I heard many voices, but no lips moved implies. Whose voices are heard?

The 'wedding' is more disturbing if you're playing a female character.
I wonder.

A matter of opinion. It worked perfectly with my fanfic.

As I recall, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The_Seven_Curses mentioned a curse-of-seed

Walter:That can be interpreted as many different things, and while you may be right in a meta-game sense, one would think an "epidemic" of infertility in Oblivion would have been mentioned.

However, IIRC, Dark Elves just simply do not have very many children, and may be referring to that instead of complete sterility.