Here's the facts we're working with:

-They have announced there will be 18 skills, if it is like it's predecessors it has an equal number of skills falling under Combat, Stealth and Magic, it would be 6 each.

-The screenshot displaying the menu and several of the skills used in Skyrim, infact displays every single mage-style character skill. The image in the background appears to be shaped as a bearded man holding a staff, and if scrolled along it would appear to encompass from Illusion to Enchanting. This would result in 6 mage skills: Illusion, Conjuration, Destruction, Restoration, Alteration and Enchanting.

-Mysticism is gone, it's spells dispursed among other skills

-Acrobatics is gone, having been combined with Athletics

-Todd Howard announced in his interview that 1h weapons, 2h weapons, and Marksman were weapons skills (I am predicting that he left out Hand to Hand, discluding it as a weapon, I could be wrong)

-Rather than having individual weapons skills there will be perk trees for each weapon style among the 1h, 2h and marksman skills

-He also announced that there will be 3 crafting skills (also other crafts not skill based) Alchemy, Enchanting, and Smithing, also saying Alchemy will fall under thief/stealth character skills

-There will be no class selection interface/interview in the game

-It will contain race/image based charcter creation in the beginning, different races have bonuses to particular skills (nothing is said about races having stat bonuses as well

-Not a thing has been published about the stats of Skyrim, just skills

-The characters status in the picture is 180 magicka, 240 health and 100 stamina (this is still early, but notice that they all round to a decimal of ten)

-They have announced leveling will result in a bonus to either health, magicka or stamina

-the skills fall into categories of combat, magic and stealth again

-weapon types will have perk trees, for example axe, sword and blunt.

-there will be dual-wielding

-the menu screenshot displays, magicka, health, stamina, name, level, race, skill..... no stats

I'll begin with the potential skill set-up, as I believe stats have possibly been removed from the game (if not they have certainly been changed heavily) My brother and I researched and debated about what the most likely skills to carry over would be, and what skills could be combined to shorten the list to 18.

We believe the Mage skills are all displayed on the skill-menu image which was released. This would mean a mage has Alteration, Restoration, Destruction, Illusion, Conjuration and Enchanting.

For a warrior character, we know that Smithing is one of the skills. We also expect that Block will carry over, as well as Heavy Armor and warriors have to have the 2h weapon skill. That's 4 so far... We believe the other 2 will be 1h weapons and Athletics (having been combined with Acrobatics). So for combat skills: Block, Armor, 2h weapons, 1h weapons, Athletics and Smithing.

For a Thief/Stealth character, we know alchemy is one of the skills. Marksman should also fall under stealth, as well as sneak. Sneak and security likely combined, as well as Barter and Speech. With two skills left, I believe Hand-to-Hand will carry over as one of them, to allow stealth characters an up-close fighting skill. For the last skill, Light Armor. So, for stealth skills: Sneak, Marksman, Speech, Hand-to-Hand, Alchemy and Light Armor

We believe Alchemy made the switch to stealth based not only upon the fact that Alchemy can result in poison-making etc, but to balance each play-style (warrior, mage, thief) with an individual crafting skill.

With that in mind, we thought "What if every skill is in balance with a relatively equivalent skill".

So in order to bring balance between the play-style skill archetypes, we figured 2 skills result in more efficient attacking, 2 result in more efficient defense/damage mitigation, and 2 are a method of world interaction / crafting. In other words 2 damage, 2 defense and 2 interaction skills

Now look at the skills I selected and listed again, falling under these 3 categories.

Type Combat Magic Stealth
Dmg 1---------1h weap-------Destr--------Hand-to-hand
Dmg 2---------2h weap-------Conj----------Marksman
Def 1-----------Block-----------Resto----------Sneak
Def 2-----------H. Armr--------Alter---------L. Armor
Act 1-----------Athlet----------Illusion-------Speech
Act 2-----------Smith-----------Encht-------Alchemy

When we first built this list, using only the confirmed skills falling under each category, we began to work out which skills were most likely to carry over to fill a particular spot. I think each skill fits perfectly with it's counter-part.
So, there you have my estimation of every skill we will see in Skyrim.

Attributes.... they aren't talking about attributes yet. The menu screenshot released displays alot of information on it, but no attribute information.
They said when you level up you will gain magicka, health or stamina, not attributes. So, they have either been changed to S.P.E.C.I.A.L, increased in number, from 8 to 9 or 10... or they have been removed completely. If they copy SPECIAL, I imagine Combat, Stealth, Magic will have 2 Attributes each. These 2 Attributes will represent 3 abilities each. With the potential for a seventh, Luck attribute affecting everything. If they stuck with the old attributes, they wouldn't evenly govern 18 skills. The reason to go up to 10 from 9 is to maintain Luck as an attribute affecting all skills rather than governing particular skills

We don't think they will copy S.P.E.C.I.A.L exactly because it would be STR and END for combat, PER and INT for magic, CHA and AGI for stealth. While Agility could cover Hand-to-Hand, Light Armor and Sneak it wouldn't make much sense for Charisma to determine your skill with Alchemy or Marksman as well as speach.
It is possible that CHA and INT are the mage attributes, with PER and AGI being stealth, however that would likely result in Conjuration, Alteration and Illusion falling under the Charisma category for mages which also doesn't seem quite fitting. It could be explained as those being the spell categories which require a little more *umph* from the character, but I think thats a bit loose.
Another reason is we think it could piss off some fans who want to claim that the fallout and elder scrolls series should be kept separate.

It is possible that they stick with their original attribute system for the most part, however with 8 attributes to govern 18 skills, they couldn't govern an equal number of skills, so there would have to be 9, governing 2 skills each. If Luck is to be kept as an attribute which does not govern specific skills, then 10 must be used.

We imagine those 10 stats would look something like this:
Combat-------Magic-------Stealth
STR------------INT-----------AGI
END-----------WIS----------PER
SPD------------SPI----------ACC
LUCK

Why does Combat get SPD? to govern athletics and block, w/ END governing Smithing and H. Armor
The other idea is that they would have to range from 1-10 in order to result in health, stamina and magicka becoming numerals in multiples of 10, as they were in the menu screenshot. Where END determines Health, one of the 3 magic ones determines magicka, and Agility determines Stamina.

So 1 of 3 attribute outcomes will be likely be used

-SPECIAL
-9 or 10 attributes, sticking with old attributes, individually ranging in value from 1-10 (maybe 1-some other number, however 10 is most likely)
-No attributes at all

A problem with having SPECIAL, or 9-10 Attributes, is that you would likely have certain attributes/special also representing Max stats (IE Health, Magicka or Stamina). We couldn't figure out a way, no matter how many combinations of various attributes/SPECIAL to reasonably balance which attribute represents which Max stat. AGI representing Stamina doesnt't really make sense.

So this leads us to conclude that removal of attributes is quite possible, and even probable.



These are just our thoughts, we are not giving a 100% guarantee that this is what you will see, however, we feel the skills are the most probable, and an attribute change/removal is required, in order to avoid dealing with problems of comnig up with a perfect attribute system, why not remove it.
We just wanted to get this out before the news was actually released, so that if we were right in the end, we wouldn't be like "I knew that this is what they would do" without evidence. haha.

I also posted nearly this exact system of skills/stats (some skill and stat differences, but having 2 defence, 2 attack, 2 interaction skills per play-style was a large part of my suggestion) a long time ago in a skill/stat suggestion forum (before the skyrim forum existed) I don't know if you can see all my previous posts, but check because I can see it and it's there... I don't have 1,000,000 posts, only like 10ish.

as long as they dont remove attributes ill put up with that

EDIT. you and your brother have way too much time on your hands

haha yep although we are talking about a game series which consumes hundreds of hours of our lives, so I think putting an hour or two into figuring out the system is reasonable

I actually hope I'm wrong. I really want to see Dodge become a skill, functioning just like block, but for thieves. (Warrior - Block, Mage - Spellshield, Thief - Dodge) this could be done if Heavy and Light armor were combined into Armor (which could have 4 perk trees, unarmored,light,medium,heavy) which would belong to Combat, and Stealth would get Dodge.

I think having a dodge for agile/speedy characters makes sense. And it would lead to very different gameplay effects. A warrior lifts his shield or sword to block and perhaps parry, a mage casts a spellshield over himself regularily when in combat, a thief dodges blows to reduce serious damage. Blocking could still take small dmg, as well as dmg shield, and dodge as well (you avoided serious damage from the attack, not all damage)

**I forgot to say, Athletics is the world interaction skill because of sprint.

The basics of it are this: IF there are attributes in the game, which most of the information we have so far seems to indicate is NOT the case, there will be 10. 9 attributes that each govern 2 skills, + Luck. 6 attributes simply cannot reasonably cover the variety of skills that we know we have in a way that makes sense... the two that govern Stealth skills would be AGI and either SPD/PERSONALITY... none of which can reasonably govern Alchemy, which has been confirmed to be amongst the Stealth skills. This can lead us to think two ways: one being that there are in fact no attributes. The other being that attributes have been severely reworked, likely there is more of them (10 total) and perhaps some are gone / renamed.

IF there is attributes it would have to work something like this:

Combat:
DD - Strength - 2H and 1H Weapons
WI - Endurance - Blacksmithing and Athletics
DR - Fortitude - Heavy Armor and Block

Stealth:
DD - Agility - Hand to Hand and Marksman
WI - Spirit - Alchemy and Speechcraft
DR - Precision - Light Armor and Sneak

Magic:
DD - Intelligence - Destruction and Conjuration
WI - Perception - Illusion and Enchanting
DR - Wisdom - Restoration and Alteration

There is further reasoning behind this in noticing that each specialization (Combat, Magic, Stealth) has skills that parallel one another. Already we know that each spec. has a "crafting" type skill... its not much of an extrapolation to suspect other parallels, and then when you look at the parallels, there is something further to notice - they can all fall under three categories; ie. Damage Dealing (DD), Damage Reduction (DR) and World Interaction (WI)

Never seen this before.

good read

Way to contribute.

I think they may merge some Attributes instead of adding or dropping them completely. The old list:

Strength
Endurance
Willpower
Intelligence
Agility
Speed
Personality
Luck

I think Speed and Agility are merged and they get divvied up like so (Using your skills):

Strength: Combat - 1 Handed, 2 Handed, Block
Endurance: Combat - Heavy Armor, Smithing, Athletics
Willpower: Magic - Alteration, Destruction, Restoration
Intelligence: Magic - Enchanting, Illusion, Conjuration
Agility: Stealth - Light Armor, Marksman, Hand to Hand
Personality: Stealth - Guile (My name for the new Sneak system), Alchemy, Speech

I think Stealth should get a full overhaul under my Guile idea. You would be able to convince people to follow you, deceive your enemies, and do other things that aren't exactly affiliated with the old sneaking system.

Edit: Oh yeah... Luck governs nothing, but affects everything, just like it always did.

At this point im convinced there are no atributes.

Also skills wise is confident that stealth contains alchemy sneak security archery speechcraft and mercantile.

Im also almost certain there is no armor skill nor and hand to hand skill.

This actually makes sense, and I can totally see this system in Skyrim ... except the part about attributes.

As much as I am usually opposed to radical changes from the legacy installments of any series I play, and have gotten into heated debates on this and other forums because of those stances... I for one would actually, surprisingly even to myself, really like it if attributes would go away. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense from the standpoint of both making the player focus more on playing, less on numbers and power-gaming, and from a realism standpoint.

While "Strength" certainly would help you do more damage in combat, you don't have to be as strong as an ox NECESSARILY to wield a melee weapon with deadly effect. There is a lot more to it than that, and even someone with relatively weak muscles could be a far better swordsman than someone with strong muscles. Yes, the current/old system still takes that into effect because you can have a low "Blade" and high "Strength" and not do very good damage with a sword... but its the opposite that bothers me... why couldn't you have low Str and high Blade and still be able to be a master swordsman and deal devastating blows? Though its less likely that you are going to be one of the better swordsmen in the land without also being one of the strongest, its not impossible. You could be just like archetype of that wizened old man teaching the strong young warrior... you whip that youngster right off his feet every time you spar, even though he's not a dunce with a blade himself and 3 times your strength. "Skill" really should play a greater role than "attributes".

For casting spells, the difference between a "Sorcerer" and a "Wizard" are another reason why the attributes don't make sense. Some fantasy depictions of magic use involve tedious learning and incantation which would require Intelligence (Wizard), and some would involve simply moving the arcane energies through you in a more primal and naturalistic way and require Willpower (Sorcerer). Both can conjure up balls of flame to destroy their enemies, but if the school of Destruction has to rely on one stat or the other, this type of distinction is lost. What matters more is that the magic user cast a ball of flame, not if he cast it moreso with thought or feeling. Untying the skill of casting the spell from a specific attribute puts the focus more on the ability of the caster simply to do the casting itself, which seems appropriate.

Even the games way of looking at this mechanic one installment to the next makes it obvious that tying skills to attributes is flawed. In Morrowind, Acrobatics was tied to Strength... but in OB, it was tied to Speed. It relies on both, as well it does on another existing stat, Agility, and on other nuances not related to either... and we aren't going to want to add "Flexibility", "Balance", or "Grip" as attributes on top of what is already there to make it more realistic. In real life, there could be many factors about an individual that determine how acrobatic they are, and neither Str nor Spd are good enough stand alone to define why the person is better at it.

The benefits to making you focus more on playing and not watching your stats menu or power-gaming for multipliers more obvious and doesn't really require anecdote to show why removing stats could be a good thing in this regard.

i don't get why so many people think they'd use SPECIAL for TES. i mean where is that even coming from?

i'm kind of hoping they do, though, just to see the angry, hurt reactions of the Enlightened Few.

I think what would have made sense is if strength increased your damage while skill in blade increased your attack speed, reduced recoil from blocking, blocking efficiency with blades, and recovering from a missed strike. If there was a really strong guy using a sword or a hammer, he'll hurt more as he swings, but he's more likely to miss, not parry properly, swing in awkward fashions, etc.

You know what would be really cool? A martial art perk is there is an unarmed skill. There could be like pressure points of something if you aim at the proper body part.

I really like this. Unfortunately, the way combat deadliness is approximated in a game that is based on HP levels differing greatly between weak and strong opponents, this may still be lacking in realism. There is only so much that having improved mechanics and responsiveness can overcome as compared to the ability to deal more health-based damage. The returns would be diminishing unless the speed at which you could strike at mastery levels became almost robotic speed rapid fire, which would look odd. But I still really like your idea with a slight tweak that the attribute Strength is still removed from the player's considerations entirely. The increases efficiency you talk about could still be there in the perk system, and as you level blade, instead of just getting new power attacks and higher damage output, you also get the efficiencies you talked about. In OB you could have 100 Blade, 100 Strength, and 100 Block, and you could still get staggered just as much as when you started out (at least that what it felt like to me) but with what you propose, you'd actually increase your characters combat effectiveness in a way that was not only related merely to a number calculation of "damage" and that would be cool.