I suppose. It's just caught me a little off guard going from a thread detailing various users hand written character backgrounds, to a thread where people seem pessimistic towards the very concept of immersion. :shrug: I know its nothing but aesthetics, but it makes me feel like I have weight in the world. It's not that it would be devastating to find out the game doesn't have it, but I always thought it would be a cool addition. Especially with the new combat system.

Halo... Halo 2 had it... I think. I don't remember if Halo:Combat Evolved had it; I haven't played it in several years.
(My xbox and my 360 have been toast for nearly a year+1/2. :cold: )
Killzone did a pretty good job with it as well.
I never played that Dark Messiah thing, but that looked pretty good (i watched that clip that was posted :thanks: ).

I'm for it, I always have liked the idea of it. I would like to see it, but it won't ruffle any of my feathers if it's not included.

I think one of the big reasons people don't like the idea is that as ES games have classically been played primarily in first person view points. Especially since the popularity of the Fallout series bringing a lot of players over to ES and the much wider audience that Oblivion captured, there are a lot of players who view ES as something alike a FPS and hold the game to those standards. There are tons of FPS games out there and the vast majority of them are about as deep as a puddle. Immersion or sense of character in FPS games isn't important. Half the FPS games I've played don't even really establish who the player is, they're just some generic role.

ES games are an entirely different breed of game, but a lot of players don't see the difference or feel the need for there to be a difference. What makes ES the ES is that they're an FPS with RPG elements in a big world rather than the ES being an open world RPG.

Unfortunately, ES games have this problem a lot. People often also want to apply MMORPG standards on the game, because of the large open game world and quest based gameplay.

Super immersion and true role play are somewhat of a niche market, one of which the appeal of ES games has managed to surpass so a lot of the player base won't be concerned about those things, regardless of whether it's the bread and butter of the series.

I want it too... It′s all about immersion!

For those who don′t like the idea to see your legs in 1st person, just make an option to hide the viewable body... simple enought!

Please Beth! Make the 1st person view more believeble in Skyrim! Pleaseeee!

I can say this with almost 100% certainty. If your body/legs, etc is viewable in 1st person... which I really really hope (it greatly enhances the 1st person experience), then it won't be optional.

Almost no gameplay settings at all are optional. Only a few exceptions are generally made, like crosshair.
Having too many gameplay togglable options make the game weird (how weird wouldn't it be with an option like "want to see your legs?"), make the game shallow and feel cheap, as if you're organizing it yourself, which imo, is something bad.

I agree. It′s little wierd an option like that, but its just a way to please other gamers too... I want viewable legs for sure, and i really don′t know why bethesda′ve never implemented it in the other Elderscrolls games... I hope the creation engine bring us this joy for our 1st person in-game experience. I really care about this issue.

More than that, i care a lot with the immersion... like the idea to helmets to obscure our vision... And see our reflection in the water would also be great too... But i′m particularly not so optimistic about that... :sadvaultboy:

I think helmet to obscure our vision is where the line goes. I wouldn't want that. Would be way too intrusive on your gameplay...

Anyway, I very much want a more expanded 1st person view too.
Seeing as Bethesda hasn't developed this one bit from Morrowind (or perhaps even Daggerfall?), I'd say it's about time to do so now. A lot of other games have it. It gives 1st person view a broadened experience.

1st person view is, as I see it, meant to make it feel like you're viewing the world from the player's eyes. You are the character. You are meant to feel that you're really in the game.
The fact that you have no legs or no body, severely detracts from that experience.

It's not the hardest thing to do. Mods have tried to do it for Oblivion, but have failed. Still, mods have tried and been on the way to success. In other words, Bethesda should be able to pull it off.

Not sure how much this is a gameplay setting. But anyway, as I said, if we get to see feet (which I'd love) for the reason of having the whole model present in 1st person, and sword swings end up looking as staccato as they do in OB using the console cheat, then there are good reasons for some not to want it. I'm using to FBA from shooters, where this works exceptionally well. But there we done have huge arm movements to simulate a sword swing, only the raising of the gun (most often).

If they can make it look good on all HW, then by all means do it. But if it's gonna look like OB like it does when using console cheat, then I think I'll pass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtP4rkJBky4
This Oblivion mod looks preety fine to me... Unfortunaletly i didn′t meet this one before a finish for the 3th time Oblivion =(

And if we will be a floating head in Skyrim too, it will take a good time to the mods to learn about the new engine and make some good mods like that... :brokencomputer:

i hope Beth think about it this time... ^_^

XD do you prefer to float as a spirit or to actually have legs.. come on people! SPIRITS ARE AWESOME!

he wasnt lookin straight down i think he was looking at an angle so he wouldnt of seen them anyway

Other thing... In Fallout for example, i often go outside with pajamas or some other cloth (wich not the armour i should be wearing), because i forgot to change, and there is no way to look at my body parts in 1st person....

In Oblivion we can see our hands holding the weapon only, but it′s not enought!

I hope they don't do this since it somehow takes away immersion for me, as I said in another thread on the same topic. I can't explain why it is, but it somehow creates more distance between me and my character and I always find it annoying in any game that uses it.

That being said, if they do somehow add it, I'll get over it easily. But saying this is a must in games today, I totally disagree. It's just a design decision and can go either way.

You are a minority if you think that it takes away immersion... I'd tell you that.

Although yes, it's not a must. But it really enhances the feeling that you are the character. The feeling that you're real. And not some floating camera.

While I agree that, if the game is "legs visible" it wouldn't be the kind of thing that would be optional, I still have some confusion over the basic concept "more options makes a game shallow". Perhaps we have different definitons of "shallow", but most people I've ever talked to think that more options adds depth.

(It's always so interesting to see the different viewpoints out there.....)

Maybe shallow is the wrong word. It's difficult to explain I think.
The point is that the game should be there and just like that by itself. By shallow I meant that it could go to such an extent one wouldn't even call it Bethesda's Skyrim anymore, and more call it something like "My own version of Skyrim".
Things like that should never be possible by default.

I think it's good to have options in one sense (people can choose), but at the same time, I wouldn't want it because of this... "shallowness" it brings with it. A game should be the devs' game and that's basically it. It should be from their point of view, and not some elastic point of view that each person can change to his likings. Then it no longer feels like Bethesda's game, as I said before.

Options are mainly only there for your performance (graphics options, what your comp can handle), and a very few "gameplay" (or whatever you wanna call it, i.e. non-graphical options) options, like crosshair.
They aren't there to change the aspects of the game, really.

Not sure if this makes too much sense for everyone. But this is how I see it.

I remember playing halo 2 for the first time and looking down and being like "wait a minute, are those my legs? Those are my legs! AWESOME!" I'd definitely like to see them in Skyrim.

Yeah, I get what you mean.

I had the same reaction when i played Arx Fatalis (2002):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWsSmV2m-fw&playnext=1&list=PLC24AEC77B413D867

It was really cool to see my legs in the game... I hope we can have this great reaction when we play Skyrim for the first time ;D

I would vote for having visible legs too.

It is part of the game.

Whats the game about?, a guy or gal (the player, person, avatar, hero) that goes on a quest to set things right, the heroes journey, basically.
That′s where the game starts from, without an avatar in the game you cant experience the game as it is,
there are games were not having an avatar is meaningless or unimportant, but this is not one of those.

Thus being able to see this avatar from first, third or bird eye view is undoubtedly a core part of the game, no avatar
to experience the world with means no game, of course you can eliminate pieces of said avatar until you only
have the minimum requirements to interact with the world, that would mean having tentacles to interact with
the world, aka arms, and hands and eyes or some way to render the world visible to use said arms in it,
if you float or crawl you don't need legs, so legs can go out the window...

But, we are going to be playing a game that is based on a human like world, and your supposed to be a humanoid in
the game, if the game had a race that had only arms and a float locomotion system, then you should see the
first person view through the eyes of that race with no legs no discussion there.
Alas all avatar playable races on the ED series have legs, so if your ingame avatar in the game is well made
he she or it should have them.

On an entirely different kind of game, that is not in the First Person View, Action sandbox RPG anthropomorphic
player based genera, legs are superfluous, this however is not that game.

Thus from an, if its part of the game it should be included logic, it should.

You can′t do with out them, if the dev does not include them hes missing something that its part of the game,

the core mechanic is that you need an avatar, take that out and you have not game
In the game you play as a humanoid like creature.
Take that feature out, and your no longer playing the game that the design doc said you were playing.

Is like playing a game about duck hunting were you shoot flying pigs to clear the level,
the core mechanic is there, a game about hunting, but if you buy a hunting game where
you were exited to shoot ducks, and you get flying pigs instead, you have to wonder what
were the devs thinking.

Its a flaw in the game, if they are calling the game duck hunt, and there are not ducks,

its not going to brake the core mechanic of hunting ducks... but is sure shows poor craftsmanship
and its not being fare to those expecting to play the game advertised... a game about
shooting ducks not pigs.


So if Skyrim its meant to be played with a humanoid character, in the first person view where
you can look all the way down where your humanoid feet are and all the way up where
the sky is and you cant see your legs or the sky, then the game is not implementing
the look up or down feature well, now if the camera is blocked so you cant see all the way
down where your feet are or all the way up, then not adding a body, feet or the sky is Ok,
if not, then its not being a good implementation.

Its the same as taking the sky away and just adding a blue to white gradient as a place holder, it works,
but implementation svcks big time, and bad implementation often hurts game play, because there's constellations
signs to represent you class and now since you cant see them your not getting a good feedback as to
what level your at, so the sky has a reason beyond the looking up mechanic, the same as the look down,
that is useful to aim at short enemies that are up close, or to jump more accurately, no feet means less accuracy,
and it makes judging dept harder all around when dealing with objects that are close to you feet.


If the game is designed with care, feet should be there.
if your playing a game with a full degree of freedom to see the
world as humanoid creature, they should be there, no other way around it.