Yes please. I didn't like how, in Oblivion, I could be Mage's Guild Archmage and Dark Brotherhood Listener (at level 2) while only killing things with a sword.

It's more about being entrusted in a position of power. Someone who can barely cast a healing spell wouldn't really advance far in a guild. The tasks are what you get for being in your position within the guild, not the other way around. You don't/shouldn't get a position within in the guild just because you completed some task. Sure, you could do a Mages Guild task without using magic, but that shouldn't get you a free pass into higher ranks.

I'd actually love to see guilds take on a more dynamic system. Being in the Mages Guild shouldn't have to revolve around me getting to Arch-Mage. Maybe I'm a bookworm and want to be head of the guild's Library, home to all the information the guild has collected over the years, with working knowledge in all bits of it (like Tar-Meena in Oblivion). Or maybe I'm adept at crafting, and work to be head of the Guild's enchanters (Delmar's position in Oblivion). Or maybe I'm more adept at destruction magic, and would fit as head of the Guild's militaristic force? Why must my path always be to become "Arch-Mage"?

Agreed.
More divisions within the guild. Illusion spell-use type of quests for being an Illusionist specialist, and so forth.

How about a compromise between the two. If you have been loyal and proven yourself capable of handling the quests that were given to you, then they would probably trust you enough to give you further assignments even if your skills were not perfect. Perhaps have a core set of guild quests that you can take as a member (the guild storyline) which don't require the more advanced ranks in the guild. Then advancement to the higher levels could require skill tests (done as a stat check like 2 magic skills over 50) and perhaps a certain number of quests (or a certain quest done). A few bonus quests could then appear for the higher levels.

Fox example using the Mage's Guild in Oblivion. Anyone could complete the recommendations as they were more of a test of loyalty to the guild. This would allow the player to reach the Arcane University where he could recieve the rest of the Mage's Guild Quests. Higher ranks would require sufficient skill in magic, but the rank requirements would be removed from the remaining quests. Of course if you don't advance in rank further but complete the questline you will not be Archmage (you might still be an Apprentice). The remaining higher members could comment on a lack of suitable canadates and say they haven't decided who to choose yet. If you advance your skills enough and talk to them then they could inform you that they have chosen you or they could send a messenger for you once you reach that point.

This could allow skills based limits for the higher ranks (makes sense), but at the same time not lock out players who are trying to be a generalist from doing the majority of the quests.

Edit: I am getting sick of seeing a major typo just after replying.

I like the comments made about "specialization" within the Guilds. Destruction Magic is a combat Magic school and was really the only one utilized in the Mages Guild, and as has been mentioned, you could just as easily swing a sword.

I think that the Mages Guild should require proficiency in ALL schools of Magic, by performing certain tasks RELATED to that skill of Magic. For instance, in order to advance, you'd have to open a difficult lock, or cast a sufficient Shield spell while you get attacked (controlled) as a test of your ability.

Yes, I think the guilds and other factions should have tasks and quests in place that provide advancement in the guild but those tasks are impossible to do if you don't have the skills necessary to perform them. They need to get harder, to where you may actually have to plan it out and try different tactics or skill sets. I also think the guilds should have more internal work and exercises, such as fighting competitions and training in the fighter's guild, actual research quests and stations where you can learn and test spells for Mage's guild

The advancements should also mean something where actually influencing and working for the guild.

I would prefer it took longer to advance between each level. It seemed to fast for both MW and OB.

Yeah, I could agree there.

I must admit, I'm one that believes that it shouldn't necessarily be possible to become the head of every organization on one file. It doesn't make sense that your character would be the best at everything, unmatched in every regard.

In Morrowind, if you wanted to become the head of the Fighters, the Mages, and the Temple stuff, you had to seriously dedicate to their skills. You couldn't do the Fighters and the Thieves, because of the conflict near the end. You couldn't do all three Great Houses, because of their rivalry.

It just makes more sense to impose some restrictions, and then stick to them. The fiction is strengthened for it.

Right, like having to choose ONE and ONLY ONE House, either Telvanni (my favorite), Redoran, or Hlaalu, in Morrowind.

Absolutely. It made so much sense in Morrowind, and was only removed for "accesibility" in Oblivion. You should have to be talented in the fields your guild specializes in for advancement to occur... common sense.

yes bring back requirements. also make it so that you can only max out one guild. you cant have two masters especially when they might be at odds with eachother like the dark brotherhood and the thieves guild.

i also want quests that are impossible or at the very least super difficult to pass without skills in that area. for example the mages guild could have a mission where you have to sneak by guards down a well lit hallway. for a mage it would be just a matter of casting chameleon or invisibility. the fighter guy would have the hardest time since he presumable doesnt have high sneak or magic skills. he would have to fight all of the guards at once and they would kill him in seconds making the mission a no go for him thus preventing him from being valuable to the guild. the opposite would happen if your character has to go into cave system and wipe out monsters that are immune to magic attacks.......making mages useless for that mission.

basically i want a reason to replay the game. i dont want to be able to finish everything on the first playthrough. i want a reason to play a variety of archetypes and maybe even races. a long underwater mission that is suitable for only argonians (you would have to contrive some story of how you would lose your gear and potions, maybe an undercover mission of some sort). i would actually play a beast race for once. for now though they are just annoying pets that i see walking around.

Short answer:
Yes!

Long answer:
Yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss!

Seriously though, I think you're right.
It was kinda strange to me when I realized that a certain warrior can advance in Mages Guild with his fighting skills just like I can advance with my magic skills.

Absolutely, yes, I like your examples a lot also.

i also want everyone in the world to realise who i am depending on what faction im in and how far into the faction im in

First of all, Killing Manimarco was a joke. I mean the guy is what? 500 years old? He should be a living god not some little punk you can blow away with a few spells.



For the sake of argument here, lets say you, me, and 3 others were compared in strength by lifting a weight. For the amount of effort each person exerted each person is assigned a number that places them in relative position to the other people. The person who is the strongest gets to be 10, while the weakest person is 1. The three others in-between get assigned 4, 6, and 7 in relation to 1 and 10. That's all these "numbers" are, it simply a measurement of your skills on a broad spectrum in comparison to other people. People who are masters of a particular talent get high numbers while novices get low numbers. The number does not define your skill, your level of skill defines the number. I don't know how else to say it, if such a concept confuses you, you are beyond helping. In RPVGs (role palying video games) you create a character with specific attributes and skills, and you control that character in the way you want to. You may try to do specific things, but your successes will be modified and/or defined by by your characters current specific talents.

Level defines your "hardiness" and overall level of experience in life.

If you want a game where you're the best at everything, play call of duty.

If this is indeed performed as you are suggesting, then the game should be directed to ask you for your "guild" intentions (which guild you may want to join) before you start your character creation, so that if you take the wrong race, etc... the game can warn you that "This character will not be able to join the Guild you declared an interest in because he/she is .... " and explain it for us so we can correct our mistake before the game begins.

It's just a courtesy, mind you, but it wouldn't be that hard to program that, maybe 3 hours of work, to save millions of player hours of gaming if they had to remake their character due to these unforeseen complications.

This is how I'd work it. Have alternate progression paths. Doing more more of one means you have to do less of others. By doing these you get renown which you use to rank up.

The first would be the main storyline. Each quest in the main storyline would have to be targeted to that guild. if you are an assasin and someone sees you you don't get as much renown.

Anohter path could be bribing your way. This would probably be only a partial method in the lower ranks.

A third method would be completing random tasks for higher ranking guild members.
This could tie in to the radiet story system.

Befiriending members of the guild with influence would also help.

But the guilds should also rate you in your skill at what they do. The assasisn guild wouldnt care what skills you use as long as you get the job done without being seen or caught. So either magic or stealth. Or a combo. But the mages guild would have tests solely on magic which you need to complete. Probably both a theory based on lore found in the library and a choiice o0f shools for a practical test. With higher ranks requiring a greater number of schools at higher levels to pick.

But by far the main part of this would be choice. You might use your diplomatic [inclding a bit of bribary] skills to rank up. Or follow the storyline whatever. As long as there is choice.

I liked how they did the first mages quests to get into the Arcane university were pretty cool albeit yes you didn't have to increase your magical abilities to do any of them but it was still kinda cool that you had to get a recommendation from each guild hall.

Though that's where I end my disagreement though as after that I do think you should have to increase your skills and obviously demonstrate them to advance.

Presumably you'd get that information when you meet that faction and you discover that they value skills X, Y, Z. If you want to go far in that faction, then you'd better work on X, Y, Z.

You might say: What if you've already progressed a fair way through the game, and have got high values in different skills, and so you can't increase X, Y, Z high enough to do well in that faction? To that I say: bad luck. You shouldn't be able to be godlike at everything, or be able to be the master of every faction/guild.

If you want to make sure that players have the information early in the game, then just make sure that players are able to meet all of the factions early on - or at least, early enough so that they can still play their character in a way suitable to that faction's requirements.

I would really like a stricter requirement on advancement in guilds. While it was fun that I can be the head of every guild at level 1 in Oblivion, I think it would pace much better if people can't just rush through the ranks.

I think it would a lot more fun if Guild Advancement was tied in with your performance in the Guild, and then they added in the opportunity to lose jobs to other Guild Members by a method I devised in another post here: http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1169466-battle-story/page__view__findpost__p__17229867__fromsearch__1 Its a way of comparing your value (based on your last few battles (but it could include quests won/failed)) with other "adventurers (or Guild Members) in order to determine who gets the next mission.

If you don't work hard to "live up" to the Guild Standards, then you won't get the good jobs. So now, there's a lot more pressure to strategize which quests to take, which monsters to kill, to keep your rating high, so you can score more Guild missions and prove yourself to the Guild.

Not every Guild job should be yours for the taking, but it should be earned by your overall performance and value to the Guild. Your outside gaming life would then be sort of influenced by how your Guild might judge your value. I think it would be immensely fun and rewarding to try and stay in your Guild's good graces!

Yeah they should have some kinda requirement, but it shouldn't be too linear that you have to create a character in a special way to join any place.